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04-23-2008, 01:02 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
Just one addition to this thread. I don't see it mentioned anywhere (but I might have missed it since I stopped reading once the personal posts appeared) but the test was done with the DA*50-135/2.8.

Should we just mention fot the sake of being complete that this is possibly the slowest focussing lens of the DA setup? And as such not really any bases for any conclusions on the AF speed of the K20D body at all? Ok, there's no lenses made by Pentax currently that can be compared to the other brands...

Wim
Tracking isn't a matter of fast AF.

Granted, the 50-135 is one slow lens at AF if you go from one side of the range to the other but when you track, it goes by very small steps and I see no difference if I track with the 50-135 or the FA 135 which is one of the fastest AF lens I have.

On a side note, I would be interested in knowing how the AF speed of the DA 200 (and 300) compare to the 50-135. Hopefully it's much better...

04-23-2008, 04:39 AM   #107
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Chris...

Dude,

Just to clarify a few points:

Here's the link to my vicious attack on Roland et al:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/19997-who-why.html

If anybody reads that thread all the way through, and is able to understand it fully, they will surely question how your mind works. I don't recall EVER mentioning Roland's name in another post so let's strike that one off the list of those I have attacked, OK?

As for Ben, we had our differences, and we sorted them out. I apologised to him directly and offered to do so publicly. He, being more mature than some, accepted the apology, declined the offer of a public one, and we moved on. The only person still harbouring resentment is you, apparently.

I have no idea when I attacked Steve. In fact, his opinions are usually more balanced than several other posters. If he praises something, I take note, since he doesn't try and defend the undefendable as some do.
04-23-2008, 05:19 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
My interest is also from a marketing perspective and after over 35 years of experience in the field I am baffled at where Pentax is trying to position themselves. The latest figures indicate Pentax has lost market share as well as total volume in the last 5 months. The K20D and K200D have dropped in price already and they have only been available for 60 days, not a good sign. An entry level model isn't even offered.

It seems to me Pentax is doing nothing but holding on by their fingertips and hoping the Samsung sensor bails them out. I see no cohesive marketing strategy that will gain them either higher volume or more market share. What makes you think Pentax is "repositioning itself in the market place and grow its market share"?

Ken
Sorry Ken, but this thread is probably not the place to have this discussion - if you want to send me a private message I am more than happy to have a discussion on Pentax marketing which I think is Fascinating and as you say sometimes baffling.

What I really find interesting is how the Pentax Brand invokes such strong emotions. I know of no other camera brand that has a blog singly dedicated to providing a central point of ANTI and negative information .

If anyone is happy with their camera they are frowned upon and called FANBOYS (I wear that badge with pride though) or deluded.

If you don't like your camera you are somehow sensible and are more capable of an objective opinion; forgive me but I think that is kind of a warped way of thinking.

Really at the end of the day if the Pentax K20D sells well you may see a faster lowlight AF. If it doesn't (and some of you here seem hell bent on ensuring it doesn't) then it will be unlikely you will ever see a higher speced Pentax.

Can't wait for those cheap lenses on EBAY!
04-23-2008, 11:32 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
Dude,

Just to clarify a few points:

Here's the link to my vicious attack on Roland et al:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/19997-who-why.html

If anybody reads that thread all the way through, and is able to understand it fully, they will surely question how your mind works. I don't recall EVER mentioning Roland's name in another post so let's strike that one off the list of those I have attacked, OK?

As for Ben, we had our differences, and we sorted them out. I apologised to him directly and offered to do so publicly. He, being more mature than some, accepted the apology, declined the offer of a public one, and we moved on. The only person still harbouring resentment is you, apparently.

I have no idea when I attacked Steve. In fact, his opinions are usually more balanced than several other posters. If he praises something, I take note, since he doesn't try and defend the undefendable as some do.
Shucks, I feel left out now

No I dont remember you having a go at me. I have been accused of being a fanboy by several others, so I have some sympathy for the hard pressed fanclub, but I dont remember you and I locking horns. I remember you had a spat with Ben, glad it was cleared up.

04-23-2008, 01:13 PM   #110
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QuoteQuote:
40D: Canon 40D + EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM (3230,- German list price)
1D: Canon 1D-mkIII + EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM (6390,- German list price)
1Ds: Canon 1Ds-mkIII + EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM (10290,- German list price)
D80: Nikon D80 + Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR G IF-ED (3260,- German list price)
D300: Nikon D300 + Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR G IF-ED (4120,- German list price)
D3: Nikon D3 + Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR G IF-ED (7140,- German list price)
E3: Olympus E3 + Zuiko 50-200 f/2.8-3.5 ED SWD (3100,- German list price)
K20: Pentax K20D + DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 ED IF SDM (2180,- German list price)
A700: Sony Alpha 700 + 70-200 f/2.8 G SSM (3800,- German list price)
So, for a fair comparison, you have to add (at least) the price of the DA* 200/2.8...
04-23-2008, 04:01 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
So, for a fair comparison, you have to add (at least) the price of the DA* 200/2.8...
Or perhaps a FA 50mm F1.4
04-23-2008, 04:32 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
So, for a fair comparison, you have to add (at least) the price of the DA* 200/2.8...
Having read the original test, let me explain their rationale...

They wanted every camera to be at 200mm full-frame equivalent focal length (for understandandable reasons), and at f/2.8 for small DoF (for visible out-of-focus, understandable again). And they wanted one lens for all bodies of one maker, to compare bodies, not lenses, within one brand (not affecting Pentax, though, but explaining why they did not choose 135mm with Canon or Nikon). And they preferred a fast (or presumably fast, AF lens).

It was not meant to be a AF price-performance test or even a vendor shoot-out.

For APS-C, they needed a 135mm f/2.8.

So, their choice of the DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 is natural and made them publish the first K20D/SDM AF test by the way as well




They testers themselves considered ALL cameras to be capable to handle the task. This is why I was satisfied for Pentax because with K10D, many would not have thought Pentax could handle the task at all. Well, Pentax came out last but not that much off the pack...



Sony did well in %, but not in absolute numbers of in-focus shots. There, Canon and Nikon excelled. I don't think this is inconsistent with the market beliefs but I don't know for sure.



For speed of lens-AF... Pentax made one photo about every 12m. AT 135mm and distances closer than 30m or so, I guess that the focus had to shift in between shots by considerable amounts (in the end).

Interestingly, a fast fps camera has less focus travel in between shots and a camera not optimized for fast fps must have a problem with AF.C and FAST moving subjects anyway.



Some poster questioned the results. I think they were quite careful. 4 testers in the field, very controlled conditions and 6 repeated series to be on the safe side. They mentioned that D300 delivered inconsistent performance at different tests so I thinh that the others were consistent.

Multi-field AF was said to be worse when the camera still missed the correct focus spot in the first few shots.



I have a question myself:

Why is the DA* 50-135mm slow if it is SDM? I mean, why then make it SDM at all?
04-23-2008, 05:22 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Why is the DA* 50-135mm slow if it is SDM? I mean, why then make it SDM at all?
Quieter focusing is my guess and probably makes it easier to weatherseal.
In one of the Pentax announcements, they did say that "high performance" SDM lenses wouldn't include the screw drive IIRC. We'll have to see what comes down the pike...

04-23-2008, 06:13 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Quieter focusing is my guess and probably makes it easier to weatherseal.
In one of the Pentax announcements, they did say that "high performance" SDM lenses wouldn't include the screw drive IIRC. We'll have to see what comes down the pike...
It's a good point, Pentax is having to include backwards compatibility with the current SDM lenses, I wonder how much that limits their designs.

They still need a newer AF system, but having to design AF and lens to suit two different focus mechanisms must be limiting in some way.
04-24-2008, 12:24 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by Maxington Quote
It's a good point, Pentax is having to include backwards compatibility with the current SDM lenses, I wonder how much that limits their designs.

They still need a newer AF system, but having to design AF and lens to suit two different focus mechanisms must be limiting in some way.
Hopefully, they'll drop the screw drive compatibility if that's the reason for using micro-motors instead of USM rings.

As much as I like to be able to mount older lenses on newer bodies, I would choose better performances over being able to mount newer lenses on older bodies (especially DA lenses....).
04-24-2008, 07:20 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Hopefully, they'll drop the screw drive compatibility
imagine all those people with Limiteds
04-24-2008, 07:34 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Hopefully, they'll drop the screw drive compatibility if that's the reason for using micro-motors instead of USM rings.
There's no need to do that and I'd prefer keeping the screw drive in the body for backwards compatibility w/ older lenses (this is something Pentax has always done much better than the competition).

Sigma's 70-200/2.8 is true HSM (ring motors) and as I mentioned, Pentax has said they will have "high performance" lenses that won't have screw drive support...
04-24-2008, 08:09 AM   #118
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I'm sure Pentax will keep the AF motor from the body. We have brand new Limiteds that will need it, we will have a new, yet un-released DA 15mm Limited... it's not like they want to fully convert their AF lenses line to SDM-only.
How about lenses, then? We can expect SDM-only lenses, and it this will increase the AF speed/ build quality/solve some QC issues that's OK with me. I hope they can find a way to make it as painless as possible for people with older cameras.
04-24-2008, 01:09 PM   #119
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QuoteQuote:
200mm full-frame equivalent focal length
200mm is 200mm is 200mm - APS-C cams (unfortunately) only crop part of the picture. If $s/s are of interest, then one should perhaps add the 400 Tokina 50-135 to the list . My post was not "anti"-Pentax. I own "some" Pentax glass and bodies. I rather look forward to a fast and reliable AF-S module (even with the FA limiteds or any "fast" lenses).

QuoteQuote:
Hopefully, they'll drop the screw drive compatibility if that's the reason for using micro-motors instead of USM rings.
Hm, hopefully the "strength" of Pentax (compatibility) will survive.
04-24-2008, 04:09 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
200mm is 200mm is 200mm
froeschle, in all friendship

my sentence included the word "equivalent". The bodies under test had different sensor sizes and they needed to normalize. If you think that 99% of this forum or myself do not know what you have written in your only 10th post or so, you may be at the wrong forum.

Please treat your forum friends with more respect as we are all Pentax enthusiasts and quite knowlegdeable (und bitte keine Haarspaltereien...).
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