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04-24-2008, 05:12 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
"Would many of you here would pay the exact same price as a Nikon D300 if the Pentax matched it ounce for ounce on performance?"
(
Yes, I would, Fater AF tracking, even better low light AF and much faster burst.
However I have worked with a D300, the things are huge (clunky) and heavy also I would take the noise with a sharp image any day over the D300's less-noise and way less sharpness of image.
IMHO I agree here with what people have said, for the price/features it can't be beat

04-25-2008, 06:10 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
There's no need to do that and I'd prefer keeping the screw drive in the body for backwards compatibility w/ older lenses (this is something Pentax has always done much better than the competition).

Sigma's 70-200/2.8 is true HSM (ring motors) and as I mentioned, Pentax has said they will have "high performance" lenses that won't have screw drive support...
I am not advocating that they drop the in body motor (I like to have backward compatibility of new bodies with older lenses) but to drop the dual screw drive + sdm motors in new lenses.
04-25-2008, 06:13 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by deejjjaaaa Quote
imagine all those people with Limiteds
That wouldn't change anything for them as the body would still be able to AF those lenses (I didn't say that Pentax should drop in body AF).

It's just the possessors of older DSLRs (*ist series and K100) that would loose AF with newer SDM lenses.
04-25-2008, 06:21 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote

Hm, hopefully the "strength" of Pentax (compatibility) will survive.
Why would dropping dual SDM+screw drive AF mechanisms in newer lenses kill Pentax (approximate anyway since they dropped mechanical aperture coupling) compatibility?

It's not like you can use these lenses on older film bodies and AF would only be an issue on *istD, Ds DL and K100 models that probably won't be around in 5 years.

I still have my Ds but it's quickly being blown off the picture by my K20 and I cannot really see the prejudice of having fast ring-SDM only lenses being put on the drawing board now and scheduled to be released in the next 3 to 4 years.

But if Pentaxians prefer to sacrifice AF efficiency to backward compatibility with a handfull of DSLRs that won't be around in 5 years... be my guest....

04-25-2008, 07:22 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
But if Pentaxians prefer to sacrifice AF efficiency to backward compatibility with a handfull of DSLRs that won't be around in 5 years... be my guest....
I actually agree w/ you (and apparently Pentax does as well if what they mentioned is true). Just wanted to clarify because you originally implied that screw drive be taken out of the body
I suspect any bigger lenses they release after the DA*300 will need a ring motor for better performance. I'm guessing the DA*60-250/4 might be the first chance to do this, but I'm not sure it's big enough to need it...
04-25-2008, 12:33 PM   #126
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QuoteQuote:
The bodies under test had different sensor sizes and they needed to normalize. If you think that 99% of this forum or myself do not know what you have written in your only 10th post or so, you may be at the wrong forum.
I just wanted to recall that the price tag of an APS-C DSLR with a lens of "equivalent" focal length will always be "smaller" (with all pros and cons) than that of a KB-FF DSLR with a lens of "real" focal length. So, for a fair price comparison, one has to look at comparable combinations (add the price of a FA* 80-200/2.8 to the K20D or the price of a Tokina 50-135/2.8 to the other APS-C non-Pentax cams). If you do that, then the performance of the K20D with AF-C is not acceptable. However, I do not care about the AF-C performance or the fps. A reliable AF-S would be sufficient for me . I do not understand how the number of posts affects my rating. Furthermore, I also did not offend anybody (there is a "" hidden in my post). Although I am a Pentaxian, one should have the right to point out the deficiencies of the brand.

QuoteQuote:
It's not like you can use these lenses on older film bodies and AF would only be an issue on *istD, Ds DL and K100 models that probably won't be around in 5 years.
Why not use the DA*s on "older film bodies"? It seems to be possible with e.g. the DA* 200. And I still use my *istD (partly because it has A-TTL). I am afraid of losing the screw drive in a similar way as we lost the KAF2 mount (stop-down indicator, aperture ring) to the "crippled" KAF mount of the DA(*)s ...
04-25-2008, 01:53 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
Why not use the DA*s on "older film bodies"? It seems to be possible with e.g. the DA* 200. And I still use my *istD (partly because it has A-TTL). I am afraid of losing the screw drive in a similar way as we lost the KAF2 mount (stop-down indicator, aperture ring) to the "crippled" KAF mount of the DA(*)s ...
I don't know about the DA 200 (given its non existent vignetting on APS-c, it might indeed cover FF) but I tried with the 50-135 and the results are rather poor.

Again, I am absolutely NOT advocating that Pentax should go all SDM and drop screwdrive support.

All I am saying is that IF keeping a dual focus mechanisms in new lenses is keeping Pentax from offering similar AF speed as other makers (the 50-135 is my only reference so... it may just be this one lens and may also have nothing to do with using micro motors instead of rings), then it would be unwise to continue on this path.
04-26-2008, 04:21 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by froeschle Quote
So, for a fair price comparison, one has to look at comparable combinations [...] If you do that, then the performance of the K20D with AF-C is not acceptable.
froeschle, I now see your point.

The test indeed wasn't meant to be a price-/performance test and I never said so. It is true that Pentax was best price but some others could have had cheaper lenses as well. Then, of course, with results possibly not as good.

If it is acceptable... Well, with results ranging from 75% to 95% with all intermediate 5% levels been populated, I would say that all results could be acceptable if the camera has other strengths.

I for myself are much more into AF accuracy. To a point where I sometimes use Liveview to manually get the ultimate sharpness at wide open apertures. I would like to see a comparison of this some day (with all participating lenses corrected where possible for back/front focus of course...).

04-27-2008, 01:20 AM   #129
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[QUOTE= Originally Posted by Tom Lusk View Post
"Would many of you here would pay the exact same price as a Nikon D300 if the Pentax matched it ounce for ounce on performance?"
([/QUOTE]

I'd preorder
04-27-2008, 01:47 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
Oh, Pentax engineers should just take apart a D300 and A700 to see exactly how their autofocus works, and what parts are involved, then just combine and change it enough to avoid copyright issues. The actual chips, and wires are cheap. Even simply faster processing capacity hardware won't add HUNDREDS per camera. The technology has already been figured out. The K30D doesn't have to be the FASTEST, just close...
Reverse Engineering have very strict legal borders, not doable the way you set it up here.
04-27-2008, 02:00 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Andrew Faires Quote
Wow. You're the first person I've seen say the FA*300 f/4.5 basically sucks. From what I've seen from the people using it, it's actually quite good. Oh well.
One of the big Pro shops in Copenhagen, only refers to FotoMagazin, when it comes to lens evaluation.
When FotoMagazin tested the Pentax 300/2.8, it got 5 stars and the Super quality mark. In Optics and Mechanics, it got 9.6 / 9.6 (with 10 being max).
The Pentax 300/4.5 could not amount to get the Super designation label. It reached 9.2 / 9.0 in Optics and Mechanics. Still a fine lens, but not up to the built of the 300/2.8.
People have always liked the 300/4.5, and with good reason. It has good sharpness wide open, it is light, affordable, so great value for money.
04-27-2008, 02:06 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
Hopefully, they'll drop the screw drive compatibility if that's the reason for using micro-motors instead of USM rings.
Exactly, I think that they down the line will bring out ring USM lenses too.

QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote
As much as I like to be able to mount older lenses on newer bodies, I would choose better performances over being able to mount newer lenses on older bodies (especially DA lenses....).
The high end bodies will probably still have screw drive possibility. Low end cams will be with in-lens motor system, like C&N

For K100 and *Ist users, there'll be the SDM rear converter, so they can use SDM lenses.

Last edited by Jonson PL; 04-27-2008 at 08:10 PM.
04-27-2008, 02:29 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
come on guys Nikon & Canon share almost 80% of the market any cost for research & development is amortised accross a larger consumer base and a larger range of DSLR.

Don't kid yourselves, Pentax engineers can quite easily develop a faster AF, what the cost is, I don't know. But I do know that that cost will have to be amortised over a lot smaller consumer base which means vastly more expensive cameras.
Another good point. Should Pentax come out with a camera inspired by the D300 and D2Xs, it would likely be in the 2.000-2.500 range.

QuoteOriginally posted by Falcons Quote
Perhaps some of you will pay the price due to having the lenses. But do you really think Pentax will attract new users with a more expensive camera that has fast AF?
It is all a matter of perception. People would like to have an upgrade path available.
I don't have a lot of Pentax glass, but I would like to see a camera with performance like my Z-1P film cam. So 4-5 fps, and other things, like I put up in this thread :
What would you (constructively) want from a K5 / K1 ? [Page 1]: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review




I saw that Tom would call us extremists, for staying with a brand that we have liked and come to trust via great performance over a number of years. I would choose Pentax over Samsung, as I want Pentax to get the money from my purchance so they can continue the road that they’ve travelled for a long time.
Samsung has been stated as having poor service compared to Pentax. So I don’t mind paying more, just as I pay more from reputable shops, compared to cheaper places that also have the product.
It means a lot that I can come back to a place, and they will have time to listen to my thoughts on a problem. I see that this suddenly qualifies me as being a Pentax snob or oxymoron. I have not really read through the longer "Who and Why" thread, But if this is the way that Tom argues, I would not be surprised that some might write fairly direct replies back.
04-27-2008, 09:30 PM   #134
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I would just like to say "Good luck to Tom and anyone else changing systems to get what they need". Reading this thread has been exhausting and probably my worst experience in my short time as a member on the forums. I'm technically challenged so a lot of this thread went right over my head. I'm also still very much a novice but I'm happy with the way my skills and knowledge are improving. I've already posted a thread thanking every one on the Forum because honestly all you guys have helped me so much. There's always something bigger, better, faster and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence (supposedly!), that's why this world is in such a mess. Personally, I'm happy with my Pentax equipment as I'm sure the majority of people on the Forum are. I think it's human nature to bitch, I do it all the time (just ask my wife) but I try not to. That seems to be what has happened in this thread except that it kind of got out of hand.

The one thing I found personally distasteful was the personal attack on CODIAC2600's status as a moderator, as far as I can see he has been doing a great job. In this thread he wasn't wearing his moderator 'Hat' (maybe he should have been), he was just Codiac2600, another Forum member. People need to distinguish the two.

Please let's just get on with doing what we love, taking pictures, whatever equipment we use.

Last edited by Damn Brit; 04-27-2008 at 09:41 PM.
04-28-2008, 02:33 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hi everybody.

As a servive to the forum, I will cite from a magazine review. Don't know if it has been published elsewhere already. I will limit this initial post to the pure facts.

(c) This is my own wrap-up and must not be copy-pasted to another forum/blog.

Summary:
- Good/near scientific test with credible results
- Good choice of gear
(e.g.: K20D with DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 SDM lens -- first K20D/SDM AF test ever!)
- K20D came in last but still close enough to the rest of the pack, i.e., still good.

Source: fotoMAGAZIN (Germany) (fotoMagazin), Nr. 5/2008, p30ff.

Results

Gear:
  • 40D: Canon 40D + EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM (3230,- ˆ German list price)
  • 1D: Canon 1D-mkIII + EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM (6390,- ˆ German list price)
  • 1Ds: Canon 1Ds-mkIII + EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM (10290,- ˆ German list price)
  • D80: Nikon D80 + Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR G IF-ED (3260,- ˆ German list price)
  • D300: Nikon D300 + Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR G IF-ED (4120,- ˆ German list price)
  • D3: Nikon D3 + Nikkor 70-200 f/2.8 VR G IF-ED (7140,- ˆ German list price)
  • E3: Olympus E3 + Zuiko 50-200 f/2.8-3.5 ED SWD (3100,- ˆ German list price)
  • K20: Pentax K20D + DA* 50-135mm f/2.8 ED IF SDM (2180,- ˆ German list price)
  • A700: Sony Alpha 700 + 70-200 f/2.8 G SSM (3800,- ˆ German list price)

(Order and prices as chosen by original print, K20 has best price in the field due to affordable DA* lens.)

Result (Test #4 -- Relative ratio of out-of-focus shots, central AF):
  1. A700: 2.1 %
  2. 40D: 6.4 %
  3. D3: 9.2 %
  4. D300: 10.0 %
  5. 1D: 11.7 %
  6. 1Ds: 14.3 %
  7. E3: 17.8 %
  8. D80: 23.2 % (but 10.7 % with multi-field AF)
  9. K20: 25.6 % (and 43.6 % with multi AF)

Result (Test #3 -- Absolute number of in-focus shots, central AF):
  1. 1D: 30.2 images
  2. D3: 21.6 images
  3. 40D: 20.6 images
  4. A700: 15.3 images
  5. 1Ds: 15.0 images
  6. D300: 13.5 images
  7. D80: 8.6 images (10.7 with multi AF)
  8. E3: 7.4 images
  9. K20: 5.8 images
    3.7 images (with multi-field AF, other multi-field AF results ommitted here)

Method:
  • Continous shots (burst, continous AF aka AF.C) of an approaching red Chrysler PT cruiser, tripod mounted and panned centering onto radiator grill. Photograph besides road. Road straight. Test done on a closed military airport.
  • Controlled speed: 100 km/h (62 mph).
    Starting photo burst at 100m distance (109 yards, 328 ft). Stopping when passing by.
    Time to drive through 100m: 3.6s.
  • Focal length: 35mm equivalent of 200mm (135mm for K20).
  • Aperture: f/2.8 or widest (Olympus).
  • Shutter: 1/320 or shorter.
  • Light: Daylight overcast with grayness. Constant conditions.
  • Storage: JPEGs onto Sandisk Extreme III.
  • Statistics: 6 series, averaged.

Short verdict (mine):
While the K20 comes out last, it did do its job surprisingly well after reading all the complaints around. We all don't position the K20 as the sport photographer's machine gun and rightly so with only 20% of the available peak performance on the market (1D).

However, it is more than sufficient for everyday photography with ~75% of images in focus.

If I may make my personal scale:

Outstanding: 95-100% (relative ratio of in-focus shots)
Excellent: 85-95%
Good: 75-85%
Average: 25-75%
Poor: 0-25%

Then I get:
  • Outstanding: A700
  • Excellent: 40D, D3, D300, 1D, 1Ds
  • Good: E3, D80, K20

Nothing to complain about. Of course, this is a representative test for AF.C performance (probably the best been published to date). It is nowhere indicative for low light AF.S performance.


Note: If you found this reading worth your time, you may also like our forum friend's lol101 post here:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-dslr-discussion/25294-k20d-af-trac...ific-test.html.
He found a 96% in-focus rate for K20 vs. only 25% for K10.

The article contains more information. So if the discussion needs it, it may provide some more info (e.g., the D300 results were said to have shown large variations).


Enjoy.
Å-3 made 108 images (5 fps*3.6 sec * 6 series) - 7.4 images is absolute number of in-focus shots , it's just 6.8%.

K20D made 3 fps*3.6 sec*6 series = 65 images, 5.8 is absolute number of in-focus shots , it's 8.9%.
D300 - 130 images, in-focus 13.5 - it's 10.4%.


25% out of focus for non-reportage camera like K20D with not very quick 50-135 in such hard condition of test is very good. Nikon D80 is the same.

Pay attention!!!
Starting photo burst at 100 m distance (109 yards, 328 ft).!!!
It's condition for high-end reportage cameras. IMO.



And this test has the odour of PR of A700
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