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04-23-2008, 07:04 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJB DIGITAL Quote
Hey Ben,
will you try a Nikon sponsorship next and tell me about it?

I'm tired of breaking my pentax's.
In my business cabinet, I have about 8 repair order receipts from the last 10 months or so. I'm sick of this.

So check out nikon for me ok?

Merci Beaucoup
I think thats quite unfair to Ben, if you want to use Nikon try one out for yourself, you will be using not him. or try and get a sponsorship yourself.

04-23-2008, 07:04 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by pareto Quote
Gee, so much BS!

Let's get to the point: He was banned from dpreview because of this Pentax sponsorship and now he desperately tries to reenter the club.

so weak

"C'est la vie"
uhhhhhhhhhh. WHO would want to get back into DPReview?
04-23-2008, 07:30 AM   #78
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I think Pentax got some sort of threat from Popular Photography and Imaging. Ben came on there and posted some of his impressions of the DA* lenses and was immediately flamed out because the non Pentax shooters (and even one Pentax shooter) thought he signed up just to "pimp Pentax" I thought it was completely out of line, that place is so clueless and blind it isn't funny. Way too many people who are told multiple times to go with Nikon or Canon because you can't go wrong with the big two or "They sell the most for a reason". If you don't shoot with a 5D or 30 or 40D or a Nikon of some sort it's almost like you're relegated to being a second class citizen.

I'm pretty sure that this has something to do with that. Ben said it was a "pop"ular magazine and spoke to "how ard"uous the whole scenario was. The online tech editor over there is named Jack Howard.

Perhaps the powers that be at Canon are bitter that he left their ranks and are threatening to take their advertising dollars elsewhere if anyone casts Pentax in too good a light. I have to say that I've never seen a company or group of it's users get so defensive as the Canon constituency everywhere I've been. Canon even sees it necessary to publish ads telling how lens based stabilization is more effective than camera based, to me that shows that they are just a little threatened by the products Pentax and others are releasing these days. We just need to get the word out and Pentax needs to be a whole bunch more aggressive with their adverts.

Losing Ben is definitely a step in the wrong direction, if I were in charge of advertising for Pentax, I'd have full spread ads in all the major magazines with his work and shots of him using the product to create his art. That's the kind of stuff that moves product in todays market. Nike doesn't sell their shoes by telling people how nice they are do they? No, they sell their shoes by putting Michael Jordan in them and making you think you can dunk wearing them.

SLC
04-23-2008, 08:28 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by SLC Flyfishing Quote
Way too many people who are told multiple times to go with Nikon or Canon because you can't go wrong with the big two or "They sell the most for a reason". If you don't shoot with a 5D or 30 or 40D or a Nikon of some sort it's almost like you're relegated to being a second class citizen.

SLC
SLC, that's out of line. I've been a member over there a lot longer than you, and I can't remember a single time someone was told by one of the regular users to go with a specific brand "because you can't go wrong with it". In fact, almost every regular member suggests the same thing- "pick the camera that feels right to you". Certainly, sometimes we get trolls, but that happens here too. I don't believe I've ever been treated as a second-class citizen for shooting Pentax. Rather, I've found that Pentax is held in high regard over there. Yes, Canon and Nikon get recommended for sports and things- but we know why. It's not because users there hate Pentax, it's because the Pentax system simply doesn't support things like sports.

I know that Pop isn't much liked over here, but that's no reason for you to dis it.

04-23-2008, 08:46 AM   #80
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Well I know I've received a lot of nasty PM's from even the moderators over there (Astro's the worst for that) when I've given my opinions and stood by them. I'm getting a bit fed up with it, and assuming that my assertion about Ben's treatment is true it sounds about par for the course from what I've seen and experienced personally. There have been plenty of threads where people were told to go with Canon or Nikon because they were the only brands with a suitable upgrade path. It's nothing that I take personally, but then Jack Howard seems so adamant that users not give false, misleading, or otherwise bad advice so I speak up when I see it. It makes a lot of the status quo over there angry, certainly you've seen it JMS.

You are treated well, I am too for the most part these days. But if you or I dare make the assertion that perhaps a certain Pentax lens is the best performer we've seen or used, or my favorite, that the K10D is the best value at it's particular price/specification point, or something else along those lines with regards to Pentax and we'd get a lot of vitriol, (trust me I have received plenty, and the worst of it has been private). It's been even worse whenever there's an Apple computer thread, I learned the hard way not to go against the grain with my opinions (at least not publicly). I'm not even sure why I keep going back, perhaps it's because there are a few really great people over there (swiss and Richie spring to mind), and the bad ones have been abnormally quiet lately.


SLC

Last edited by SLC Flyfishing; 04-23-2008 at 08:53 AM.
04-23-2008, 08:50 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by SLC Flyfishing Quote
Losing Ben is definitely a step in the wrong direction, if I were in charge of advertising for Pentax, I'd have full spread ads in all the major magazines with his work and shots of him using the product to create his art. That's the kind of stuff that moves product in todays market. Nike doesn't sell their shoes by telling people how nice they are do they? No, they sell their shoes by putting Michael Jordan in them and making you think you can dunk wearing them.

SLC
That is comical. I'm going to buy a Pentax because Ben takes great fashion photos with one?? Anyone who purchases a $1000+ camera based on that really needs to re-think their process.
04-23-2008, 08:58 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by SGT Quote
That is comical. I'm going to buy a Pentax because Ben takes great fashion photos with one?? Anyone who purchases a $1000+ camera based on that really needs to re-think their process.
I agree, trust me. But you and I aren't the average buyer. Most people are swayed by that sort of thing, either consciously or subconsciously, and most people buying DSLR's today have either no prior photography experience, or very very little experience. What experience they do have generally doesn't extend beyond their P&S camera. It's an image that goes along with Canon and Nikon products, Canikon know that and they know how to capitalize on it.

SLC
04-23-2008, 09:07 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by SGT Quote
That is comical. I'm going to buy a Pentax because Ben takes great fashion photos with one?? Anyone who purchases a $1000+ camera based on that really needs to re-think their process.
I am nobody's advocate but I think that what the people is trying to say is that if you have a product that have been used extensively by professionals (and i mean many of them, not only Ben), the perception of quality (myth) of the product would change for good. If I am not wrong, a movement towards the 645D would have served that purpose. With that camera (or a similar one) much more professionals would have started to use (reuse) Pentax and you would have been able to see more and more pics taken with Pentax on magazines, advertising.... On the short-run, it might not be profitable but in the mid-run, Pentax reputation would have grown and other Pentax products would have had another perception. Every monographic/portfolio/interview on American photo, pop-photo about popular photographers using Pentax would have had a great resonance among the people that buy those magazines. Those people would have transmitted that perception to others and so on. Canon did that, Nikon too and Sony is starting to do the same. Is a long-term marketing strategy that it makes sense to me but that it might be to risky for Hoya executives. Being Ben a relatively popular photographer on his field and area, with all the connections that he has to have in one of the fashion hotspots of the world, the myth theory could have work out quite well if they would have recruited some extra professionals of the area. I dont know if what I am telling is what happened to him but I dont find it senseless.

04-23-2008, 09:32 AM   #84
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I'd have to agree w/ the "myth" or "legend" thing as well. Canon does it well by sponsoring things like Art Wolfe's Travels to the Edge.

When friends found out I got a dslr, their first question was Nikon or Canon...I responded I used the best tool for the job and pointed at my Nikon flash sitting on my K10D w/ my Sigma 17-70 lens :-) Most people are into "name brands". The "legend"/"myth" makes them "name brands" and exposure/popularity does.
04-23-2008, 09:46 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Most people are into "name brands". The "legend"/"myth" makes them "name brands" and exposure/popularity does.
MY guess is that the majority of the uninformed purchasers seek the guidance of sales professionals. Why the sales pros push Canon and Nikon over Pentax is beyond me, maybe margins? (Many photo outlets do not even carry Pentax) I still stand by my original statement "Anyone who purchases a $1000+ camera based on that really needs to re-think their process."
04-23-2008, 10:02 AM   #86
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I dont think that you are wrong but apply your thinking on buying something that you dont know very well (laundry machines, microwave, mattress....) When you are clueless what is one of the first things you consider? Would you buy a device with similar specs and unknown for the same price that one well-known? I am not saying that this is the right thinking but I think that it is the most-frequent.
04-23-2008, 10:10 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gruoso Quote
I dont think that you are wrong but apply your thinking on buying something that you dont know very well (laundry machines, microwave, mattress....) When you are clueless what is one of the first things you consider? Would you buy a device with similar specs and unknown for the same price that one well-known? I am not saying that this is the right thinking but I think that it is the most-frequent.
You have it right. People see all those white lenses at a sporting event or gear used in some form of public media and assume they will get a better quality unit simply because the "Pros use one so it must be better" Funny thing is the pros will use whatever free stuff they can get with a few $$ attached.

All those TV commercials, shows about photography and print ads, just scream at the new buyer that Canon and Nikon are the only things to consider.
04-23-2008, 10:16 AM   #88
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Let me relate an experience that I had a few months back.

My wife and I were in best buy, my wife was looking for a DVD and I decided to go over to the camera section and check SD card prices. While I was there I saw that they had the Sony A700 on display and I decided to give it a peek. It was locked under glass so I couldn't handle it but I was looking at the camera and checking out the lenses they had in there with it.

All of the sudden, this lady (who had no affiliation with Bestbuy at all by the way) comes up behind me and informs me that I don't want to waste my time with the camera. I started to tell her that I already own a camera but she just kept going on and on about how her husband does photography for a living and he won't even touch anything but a Canon. I couldn't even get a word in edgewise.

This lady then proceeds to point out the prints that were hanging above the display and points out one particularly beautiful landscape photo, framed and with a little engraved placard attached. She says "see this photo, you can tell that this one was obviously shot with a Canon, I can tell it's a 5D. You just don't get images like that with Sony, Nikon's close but Canon is the only camera you want, trust me!"

I lean in close to the frame, read the placard, and laugh out loud. "What?" she asks me. With what was probably the biggest look of satisfaction I've ever had I read the placard to her. "Wall Lake, Uintah mountains, Utah. Captured such and such date with Sony A100 DSLR" It also had the exposure and lens info on there but that's beyond the point. The lady was speechless of course, then I called an attendant over to get the A700 out for me just to let it sink in a little, I'm a jerk, I know! but it was so funny and I couldn't help myself.

It's another case of the "myth" that surrounds the big two. They're far from having a lock on the best equipment, but the average joe on the street who has just a very basic knowledge of cameras knows Canon and Nikon and the "great photos that are only possible through their products". Pentax needs to figure out a way to get something like that associated with their products. We'll all know it is hype and marketing, but it will sell units and people won't be getting a lesser product by any means.

SLC
04-23-2008, 10:21 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
I think thats quite unfair to Ben, if you want to use Nikon try one out for yourself, you will be using not him. or try and get a sponsorship yourself.
i was kidding....

i really am tired of these things breaking all of the time, but i dont expect anyone to do anything for me at any time. its a hard world where you work for your own stuff....

hope that clears it up.
04-23-2008, 10:31 AM   #90
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SLC Flyfishing. Now if that isn't a "Mastercard priceless moment" ! Perfect. Love it. Great story. But it also clearly proves the point. We are a brand society and totally swayed by the hype and advertising thrown at us. There are thousands of examples of this. MacDonald's would be the best of all. Bigger than all the competitors out there and they make the worst burger on the market. Myth/hype whatever you call it, sells product.
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