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04-19-2014, 04:53 PM - 1 Like   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
645Z also has CDAF in LV, which most likely cover the whole frame.
This might actually be a killer feature on a camera that often is on tripod.
I have seen action photography done with 645D. Those 11 points in it really came in handy.

As for the position of the AF points inside the 645Z being same as in the K-3, and not spread across the entire frame, I see that as a bonus. Because of the nature of MF.

Closer and more tight space between the points (relative to MF sensor size) means that action photography is possible again, and will enable AF with less errors or undesirable outcomes that would creep in if the space between dots were wider.

Because of its vast DoF control and significant change of mood in a photograph if the focus is changed from one dot widely separated from another, the photographer would need to repeat shooting sessions consecutively and to endless frustration. An MF photographer really wants AF points to cover just ONE part of the frame, not the entire frame.

An MF photographer wants very subtle changes in photographs — not different moods altogether. In short, an MF photographer wants to exercise control to a much higher degree.

Thus relying just one one AF point (stills) and recomposing slightly, or on 27 of them but very closely packed together, the results are more controllable and they give optional choices, rather than totally wrong shots. Say, with 27 AF dots an MF photographer can selectively change focus across a model's dress without changing camera's relative angle, and in the final selection choose a shot that the art director approves.

Or, a photographer can frame a shot with a cluster of all 27 dots across the model's face, and then selectively change focus: from tip of the nose to the base of the nose, to eyelashes, to earrings, to cheeks, tip of the lips, chin, etc. And that kind of control is what is really wanted, in demands less strain on the model, sessions are done faster, which means models are less tired, less energy is consumed for wiring, lights and flashes, etc.

In other words, it is sensational to have such an AF system inside an MF body.


Last edited by Uluru; 04-19-2014 at 05:09 PM.
04-19-2014, 04:59 PM   #227
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I do think there is a market for a digital Mamiya 6, and it will happen eventually. Fuji will almost certainly jump on this idea the moment they can manufacture the sensor at a price that will turn a profit. I don't think this is far off either. In fact I'd bet Sony's sensor price is in or atleast close to that range. However I don't think Sony has the branding to do it, they're not seen as a serious photographer's brand and they won't be able to make this kind of product as anything more than a novelty. Fuji on the other hand has a long history with exactly this niche. I think its still a few years off though, Fuji won't compete with Leica at Leica prices, they need to get the price down to 5 or 6k.
04-19-2014, 06:01 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by fretlessdavis Quote
Also, you have the complexities of the mirrorless systems.
A mirrorless camera (think K-01)
is simpler than an equivalent DSLR with live view (think K-50).

QuoteOriginally posted by fretlessdavis Quote
The mirrorless market seems to be limited to enthusiats
No longer.

QuoteOriginally posted by fretlessdavis Quote
-- and how many enthusiats are going to drop $5-$8k on a mirrorless MF body, just to have to buy brand new lenses for a mount that was just introduced that may or may not be around in a few years?
A 33 x 44mm-sensor mirrorless with the K-mount would avoid that problem.
04-19-2014, 08:30 PM   #229
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"A 33 x 44mm-sensor mirrorless with the K-mount would avoid that problem..."

So -- could Pentax just jump over all this FF stuff... put the 51 MP sensor into a mirrorless that looks like a K-3, with an EVF... and call it a K-1? Then, later on, make a FF K-2?

04-20-2014, 04:40 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
(..)

A 33 x 44mm-sensor mirrorless with the K-mount would avoid that problem.
QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
"A 33 x 44mm-sensor mirrorless with the K-mount would avoid that problem..."

So -- could Pentax just jump over all this FF stuff... put the 51 MP sensor into a mirrorless that looks like a K-3, with an EVF... and call it a K-1? Then, later on, make a FF K-2?
And what do you think would be the utility of a 33x44 sensor behind lenses designed either for 16x24 or 24x36 sensors/film?
04-20-2014, 05:39 AM   #231
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Vignetting and a $8500 price tag.
04-20-2014, 06:26 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Vignetting and a $8500 price tag.
04-20-2014, 06:35 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
And what do you think would be the utility of a 33x44 sensor behind lenses designed either for 16x24 or 24x36 sensors/film?
The same as when Nikon users put a DX lens on an FX camera.

"FX cameras can also use DX lenses, however to avoid vignetting, the DX crop mode is automatically selected by the camera when a DX lens is attached."

FX & DX Format Lenses Explained | Learn About FX Lenses & DX Cameras from Nikon

---------- Post added 04-20-14 at 08:47 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
So -- could Pentax just jump over all this FF stuff... put the 51 MP sensor into a mirrorless that looks like a K-3, with an EVF... and call it a K-1? Then, later on, make a FF K-2?
To get going, they would need a minimal set of new K-mount lenses covering the larger circle.
The sensor would need microlenses like those on the Leica Max sensor:

"Microlenses with a strong curvature and high top height focus the incoming light rays in the center of each pixel's photodiode. The resulting low angular sensitivity of the quantum efficiency (QE) at high ray angles was achieved by the particular features of STM's 110/90nm CMOS process. This allows the “Leica M” to accept the full range of high-quality lenses in the camera system, which includes wide-angle, large aperture lenses, at their full optical performance."

New ?Leica M? Uses CMOSIS? 24-MP CMOS Image Sensor - CMOSIS - CMOS Image Sensors

04-20-2014, 07:25 AM   #234
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So they will have to fight using an inadequate mount for the sensor's size, and new lenses would be needed anyway. Why would they do that?
And more importantly, how is PentaxDoomed for not doing this instead of the 645Z?
04-20-2014, 07:44 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
So they will have to fight using an inadequate mount for the sensor's size
You think the M-mount is "inadequate" for 24x36mm?
04-20-2014, 07:45 AM   #236
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No, but I think the K-mount is inadequate for 33x44. The corners of the 33x44mm sensors will be well hidden by the mount; I don't want to think what compromises would have to be made in order to make it work.
But a picture might be more suggestive - I selected the APS-C sensor and enlarged it to correspond with a 33x44mm. Even this image is misleading, as the lens' rear element has a smaller diameter (it has to enter inside the mount, and then there's a quite thick edge).
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Kunzite; 04-20-2014 at 08:05 AM.
04-20-2014, 08:06 AM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
A mirrorless camera (think K-01)
A 33 x 44mm-sensor mirrorless with the K-mount would avoid that problem.
Uh... no it would not avoid the problem. I serisously doubt any existing K glass will cover anywhere near that, so a full line of new lenses will still need to be manufactured. Also, MF glass would be much more expensive, so nobody would be going out to buy MF K mount glass, and they'd be cost prohibitive to have to use on their APS-C bodies.

I'm still not sold. Yes, pro's and more enthsiasts are using mirrorless, but it's still a very small market in comparison to professional DSLR users.
04-20-2014, 09:14 AM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But a picture might be more suggestive - I selected the APS-C sensor and enlarged it to correspond with a 33x44mm.
You'd get the same kind of picture with a 24x36mm image field (43mm diagonal)
placed behind a Leica 39mm threadmount.
04-20-2014, 09:17 AM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I think you can even cramp that sensor in the box off the K-01

New mount on it, only electronic offcourse. No SR. Just the PRIME III inside.

Make it with 4 lenses:
- wide zoom 27-46mm/f5.0
- 55mm/f2.8 standerd lens
- portraitlens 90mm/f2.8
- 150mm/f2.8 telelens.

That is all you need for this. Even Ricoh could do that.

Looks even good I think: http://j.mp/AeTvjB#sthash.81qaTBD0.dpuf

The mount can be smaller then on 645Z because only for the 44x33mm crop sensor.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, but I think the K-mount is inadequate for 33x44. The corners of the 33x44mm sensors will be well hidden by the mount; I don't want to think what compromises would have to be made in order to make it work.
But a picture might be more suggestive - I selected the APS-C sensor and enlarged it to correspond with a 33x44mm. Even this image is misleading, as the lens' rear element has a smaller diameter (it has to enter inside the mount, and then there's a quite thick edge).
Offcourse you need a new mount when you want to change things. Smaller then the 645Z, but larger the K-mount. All electronic and still inside the yellow brick
04-20-2014, 09:19 AM   #240
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I doubt MF in the K-mount makes sense, because the image circle of the lenses right now is not big enough. I am sure it can be done (with some sacrifices), but Pentax would have to release a whole new lens series. And for all of us who already have K-mount lenses, a lot of the sensor area simply wouldn't be used. This means we would pay for a sensor and we wouldn't use a part of it. Full frame makes more sense, because there are K, M, A, F, FA, DFA lenses that cover the whole sensor. And even some DA lenses cover it. But I seriously doubt they would cover a sensor bigger than FF.
And making K mount lenses that would cover such a big image circle would mean they would be huge. Which is the opposite of what Pentax is doing right now - small, compact, light lenses.
Its an interesting idea, but I don't think its economically feasible.

Making another mount.. well, this idea has been discussed a lot, but it doesn't seem like Pentax is interested. They have Q, K and 645 mount (and 67 maybe?). This should allow them to cover everything from really compact, to crop, to FF, to MF crop, real MF.. (and maybe some day even a digital 67, though I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it)

With the 645Z and making more MF lenses available outside Japan, Pentax seems to be investing in this format. Good! Hopefully we see some more innovation with the K-mount soon, too. Of course, the K-3 has some pretty innovative features already!

Last edited by Na Horuk; 04-20-2014 at 09:25 AM.
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