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06-05-2014, 06:48 AM   #331
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@ monochrome : i am presently trying to sell my "like new 645D" with 3600 actuations and 10 month residual garanty period (asking price : not less than €uro 4500 body only) i.o. to have less than €uros 3500 to reinvest in the stunning i.q.

@dgdb : DFA55/2.8 , DFA90/2.8 and FA120/4 in studio conditions.

06-05-2014, 08:00 AM   #332
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@Zygonyx The choice I was referring to is between that FF 'D' camera, whose maker claims it equals the 645D in IQ, and the new 'z' camera - but I can see I misread your post. You were comparing the 645D and the 645z.

So to clarify and correct, "So now you have to choose again. $4,500 for IQ or $8,500 for stunning IQ" (in the USA).
06-05-2014, 11:54 AM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
@ monochrome : i am presently trying to sell my "like new 645D" with 3600 actuations and 10 month residual garanty period (asking price : not less than €uro 4500 body only) i.o. to have less than €uros 3500 to reinvest in the stunning i.q. ;.
I can buy new 645D for less than 4500 eur in our country. Price for used 645D will be close to 3000 eur.
06-05-2014, 12:23 PM   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
@Zygonyx The choice I was referring to is between that FF 'D' camera, whose maker claims it equals the 645D in IQ, and the new 'z' camera - but I can see I misread your post. You were comparing the 645D and the 645z.

So to clarify and correct, "So now you have to choose again. $4,500 for IQ or $8,500 for stunning IQ" (in the USA).
OK

QuoteOriginally posted by dfujevec Quote
I can buy new 645D for less than 4500 eur in our country. Price for used 645D will be close to 3000 eur.
To date you can have 645D new body only on internet for 4995 €uro at best in France.
So this is about my celling to change as i got mine in a physical store at €uro 10 000 3 years ago. If i can't sell it €uro 4500, i will keep the 645D.
I am only an amateur, not Ricoh's shareholder

06-07-2014, 02:01 AM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The 645Z has a 35mm-equivalent crop of only 0.79. It is a much smaller sensor than the 645 format would suggest and built into a mirrorless camera, it would be rather small, not much bigger than an RX1!

Truth is, a 645Z with F/2.8 lens is outperformed (in light sensitivity) by a full frame with F/2 lens or faster.

Not something I'd call "far exceeding". I assume a D800e/Sigma50/1.4Art vs. 645Z/75/2.8 will be hard to distinguish. Esp. now that they are made from the same silicon and spatial resolution is only 17% apart (only 12% in 3:2).
Old quote, but I wanted to respond...

Yes we know that f/2.8 on cropped MF, f/2 on FF, f/1.4 on APSC are equivalent.

So FF & MF are useless because you can find f/1.4 lens for APSC system. End of story ! And there exist f/0.95 lens for micro four third, so well even APSC is useless.



Of course not! The MF lenses are not the same at all. The colors, rendering, constrast & sharpness are not the same at all. Most FF lens struggle with the D800E already. You need to go to their optimal apperture and to not look into the borders. Try looking @f/2 !

MF lenses performance is at a totally different level... And the usage is different. The idea is not to shoot 1600iso f/2 instead of 6400 f/4 or 12800f/2.8 handled in dim light but to do stunning shoots @100isos with tripods or in studio.
06-07-2014, 10:42 AM   #336
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Thank you Nicolas06 for your shrewd observations.
Nonetheless, Ricoh should imho boost 645 MF bokeh's difference to 35mm in planning/producing really fast lenses : f/2.4 ot f/2 would be most welcome in this respect...
06-07-2014, 11:30 AM   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Ricoh should imho boost 645 MF bokeh's difference to 35mm in planning/producing really fast lenses : f/2.4 ot f/2 would be most welcome in this respect.
Presumably you could use an adapted 67 105/2.4 if you wanted.
06-07-2014, 12:34 PM   #338
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Yes i will, btw i just ordered this lens as i also shoot 6x7.

06-08-2014, 04:07 PM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Old quote, but I wanted to respond...

Yes we know that f/2.8 on cropped MF, f/2 on FF, f/1.4 on APSC are equivalent.
They are DOF wide open equivalent only. Not in other properties.
The main property of fast lenses is letting in more light. A 2.8 lens is equivalent to a 2.8 lens regardless of format (thats why they are labeled 2.8!). Shallww DOF is a side effect due to the laws of optics but there are no correlation between wanting to shoot in low light and wanting thin DOF....
06-09-2014, 01:41 AM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
... but there are no correlation between wanting to shoot in low light and wanting thin DOF....
Well sometimes there's an inverse correlation: low light means more difficulties in focusing and then a DOF security margin may be very welcome.
06-09-2014, 02:01 AM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I truly do not understand the imperative to change everything to a skinny, shiny hipster plate. Is it Apple design envy?
You could say that, because Apple has revolutionised consumer electronics in other areas, so Japanese execs think that the optics market will go the same way. The interview with a Ricoh exec that was posted here a few months ago said as much.

Even though you (and I) may be fairly tolerant of a certain amount of bulk and weight if the quality is there, we're probably not typical of the market.
06-09-2014, 03:59 AM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
They are DOF wide open equivalent only. Not in other properties.
The main property of fast lenses is letting in more light. A 2.8 lens is equivalent to a 2.8 lens regardless of format (thats why they are labeled 2.8!). Shallww DOF is a side effect due to the laws of optics but there are no correlation between wanting to shoot in low light and wanting thin DOF....

FF we take a crop of FF size in the MF, the light received will be the same at same apperture, that true.

But bigger sensor is not about just cropping to lower size. It about using the whole size for the image, and thus at equal apperture more light has been gathered on a MF than on a FF.

The same happen on FF vs APSC and that why when you use the same sensitivity on the sensor (due to equal apperture & speed) the result are with less noise on an FF and why you see much higher score for FF sensor on DxO than for APSC.

We don't have yet the score for 645Z (previous MF were CCD), but you'll see the low noise performance will beat all available FF by a big amount.
06-09-2014, 05:33 AM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
FF we take a crop of FF size in the MF, the light received will be the same at same apperture, that true.

But bigger sensor is not about just cropping to lower size. It about using the whole size for the image, and thus at equal apperture more light has been gathered on a MF than on a FF.

The same happen on FF vs APSC and that why when you use the same sensitivity on the sensor (due to equal apperture & speed) the result are with less noise on an FF and why you see much higher score for FF sensor on DxO than for APSC.

We don't have yet the score for 645Z (previous MF were CCD), but you'll see the low noise performance will beat all available FF by a big amount.
If I did the math right (not so sure, ever), the ISO score for 645z should be around 5000 while D800E has 2979 and K-5II has 1208. They've all got Sony sensors with similar pixel densities and the bigger the area, the better the sensitivity.
Disclamer: I'm no math genious. Tried my best.
06-09-2014, 07:10 AM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
FF we take a crop of FF size in the MF, the light received will be the same at same apperture, that true.

But bigger sensor is not about just cropping to lower size. It about using the whole size for the image, and thus at equal apperture more light has been gathered on a MF than on a FF.

The same happen on FF vs APSC and that why when you use the same sensitivity on the sensor (due to equal apperture & speed) the result are with less noise on an FF and why you see much higher score for FF sensor on DxO than for APSC.

We don't have yet the score for 645Z (previous MF were CCD), but you'll see the low noise performance will beat all available FF by a big amount.
That is true and this is also the main purpose of the larger sensor; to increase image quality and decrease noise. However, some people seem to miss this point and insisting that ISO doesn't matter......
06-09-2014, 10:38 AM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is true and this is also the main purpose of the larger sensor; to increase image quality and decrease noise. However, some people seem to miss this point and insisting that ISO doesn't matter......
I get that the total area of a larger format will gather more photons than a smaller format. But, isn't it the size of the photosite that matters. Generally FF photosites will be larger than they are in an APS sensor, so therefore they will capture more photons and therefore the signal to noise ratio will be greater on the sensor with the larger photosite???

So as an example, Sony putting out a A7s with only 12mp is an effort to increase the photons captured in each photosite to increase the signal to noise ratio.

Hope thats right. There, of course, were no photosites on film, just one big area of film - things change.
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