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06-09-2014, 01:29 PM   #346
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QuoteOriginally posted by jppp Quote
If I did the math right (not so sure, ever), the ISO score for 645z should be around 5000 while D800E has 2979 and K-5II has 1208. They've all got Sony sensors with similar pixel densities and the bigger the area, the better the sensitivity.
Disclamer: I'm no math genious. Tried my best.
K-5II: 1235
then

D800 should be 1235*1.52*1.52 = 2853 (all else the same) (ta da! DxO scored it exactly 2853)

645Z should be 2853*(44*33/24*36) = 2853*crop factor^2 = 2853*1.68 = 4793

Far too precise, as other things can factor in a small amount, so you are correct, it is around 5000.


People are misconstruing this to mean that you would actually want to shoot at ISO 5000, which is of course a terrible leap of logic from this simple-but-very-correct-metric.

06-09-2014, 01:29 PM - 1 Like   #347
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
(...)

There, of course, were no photosites on film, just one big area of film - things change.
There were kind of 'photosites' on film: silver halide crystals. The bigger the crystals, the more sensitive the film and the more grainy the negative.
06-09-2014, 01:31 PM   #348
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I get that the total area of a larger format will gather more photons than a smaller format. But, isn't it the size of the photosite that matters. Generally FF photosites will be larger than they are in an APS sensor, so therefore they will capture more photons and therefore the signal to noise ratio will be greater on the sensor with the larger photosite???
Yes, but largely irrelevant, because with over 20 million pixels, we cannot see small bumps in images (and usually post-process them out, anyway).

QuoteQuote:
So as an example, Sony putting out a A7s with only 12mp is an effort to increase the photons captured in each photosite to increase the signal to noise ratio.
For each pixel that is true, but for the picture as a whole it is irrelevant, they have the same SNR. Sony made that camera for processing speed (video).
06-10-2014, 03:55 PM   #349
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I get that the total area of a larger format will gather more photons than a smaller format. But, isn't it the size of the photosite that matters. Generally FF photosites will be larger than they are in an APS sensor, so therefore they will capture more photons and therefore the signal to noise ratio will be greater on the sensor with the larger photosite???

So as an example, Sony putting out a A7s with only 12mp is an effort to increase the photons captured in each photosite to increase the signal to noise ratio.

Hope thats right. There, of course, were no photosites on film, just one big area of film - things change.
It is true that smaller pixels get less light than big ones, because, hey they are smaller.

But if you average the light gathered by a few of theses smaller pixels, you'll have as much light comming in as before at first sight.

That why the K3 score almost the same as K5, that D600 score almost the same as D800. No FF go better than 3200iso anyway, even the one with the fewest pixels inside. We stay at roughly the same level.

For the Sony A7s, this one be actually better, they explain that they changed the way they make the photosites, how they gather light so less is wasted in between them.

I expect their design on the sensor to give them some improvement, enough to beat Canikon but that will not be that huge otherwise they would have say so. They carefully say the new Sony will be better than any FF and they don't say by what margin. After they insist they bumped the iso maximum like if every photographer really wanted to take photo at 400K isos anyway. They try to sell us their improved noise removal algorithm and that can be fine for JPEG, but anybody with a RAW from any sensor and using DxO or Lightroom can use the best algorithms. That what anybody that care for ultimate high iso performance should do anyway... You easily gain a few EV with theses tools.

Maybe the new sensor design is more difficult to apply if the pixel is too small, but there no reason it impossible that an improved design could not fit smaller pixels in the future.

---------- Post added 06-11-14 at 01:03 AM ----------

Anyway my point was and remains that for me you don't get 645Z for it behavior @6400iso handled. IYou don't care neither of the equivalence.

The reality is that in many conditions you can choose the best speed & apperture compromize for the best creative effect and you can still shoot at iso 100. And theses isos 100 of one MF sensor go with far less noise and deeper colors.

The transitions and the bokeh also tend to be more pleasing to the eyes while bigger lens also exibit better performance.

06-13-2014, 05:49 AM   #350
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On April 30th, 2014 the private equity fund Platinum Equity sold Truesense Imaging, formerly the Image Sensor Solutions (ISS) division of Eastman Kodak Company and the designer and producer of the Pentax 645D's sensor, to ON Semiconductor, itself a spin-off from Motorola.

Hereafter the press releases from seller and buyer:

Platinum Equity

ON Semiconductor Completes Acquisition of Truesense Imaging, Inc.

From now on, business will focus on industrial end-markets, in particular machine vision, surveillance and intelligent transportation systems. Bye bye photography sensors! Pentax 645D could be phased out pretty quickly...

Last edited by Mistral75; 06-13-2014 at 05:55 AM.
06-13-2014, 09:43 AM   #351
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
On April 30th, 2014 the private equity fund Platinum Equity sold Truesense Imaging, formerly the Image Sensor Solutions (ISS) division of Eastman Kodak Company and the designer and producer of the Pentax 645D's sensor, to ON Semiconductor, itself a spin-off from Motorola.

Hereafter the press releases from seller and buyer:

Platinum Equity

ON Semiconductor Completes Acquisition of Truesense Imaging, Inc.

From now on, business will focus on industrial end-markets, in particular machine vision, surveillance and intelligent transportation systems. Bye bye photography sensors! Pentax 645D could be phased out pretty quickly...
Well for Ricoh no problem, but this means also that there is just one sensor for photography in production. Also for Hasselblad and others so.
06-13-2014, 10:06 AM   #352
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Not exactly. There are also the CCD sensors produced by Teledyne Dalsa.
06-13-2014, 01:21 PM   #353
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
On April 30th, 2014 the private equity fund Platinum Equity sold Truesense Imaging, formerly the Image Sensor Solutions (ISS) division of Eastman Kodak Company and the designer and producer of the Pentax 645D's sensor, to ON Semiconductor, itself a spin-off from Motorola.

Hereafter the press releases from seller and buyer:

Platinum Equity

ON Semiconductor Completes Acquisition of Truesense Imaging, Inc.

From now on, business will focus on industrial end-markets, in particular machine vision, surveillance and intelligent transportation systems. Bye bye photography sensors! Pentax 645D could be phased out pretty quickly...
I read your link to onsemi.com, and it listed applications "such as". From what i've read, i didn't seen anything that said they would not support photography, so i hope this just means a change in ownership.

06-13-2014, 02:20 PM - 1 Like   #354
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I read your link to onsemi.com, and it listed applications "such as". From what i've read, i didn't seen anything that said they would not support photography, so i hope this just means a change in ownership.
"The acquisition of Truesense Imaging solidifies ON Semiconductor’s position as the leading global supplier of high-performance image sensor solutions addressing a wide range of industrial end-markets,” said Mr. Hopkin. “It strengthens ON Semiconductor’s product portfolio targeting industrial end markets such as machine vision, surveillance, and intelligent transportation systems (ITS)."

How do you see photography as an 'industrial end-market' ???

The distinction is clearly made when they describe Truesense Imaging's today's business: "a provider of high-performance image sensor devices addressing a wide range of industrial end-markets including machine vision, surveillance, traffic monitoring, medical and scientific imaging, and photography."

ON Semiconductor is clearly interested in the former ('industrial end-markets including machine vision, surveillance, traffic monitoring, medical and scientific imaging') rather than the latter ('photography').
06-14-2014, 01:18 PM   #355
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By the way, ON Semiconductors just (on June 9th) announced the signing of the acquisition of Aptina. Closing is expected to take place before September 30th.

Again, they are interested in the industrial business of Aptina, including their automotive business. Herebelow the press release:

ON Semiconductor to Acquire Aptina Imaging

Now, it's Nikon that will have to procure their 1" sensors from Sony...
06-14-2014, 03:22 PM - 1 Like   #356
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
By the way, ON Semiconductors just (on June 9th) announced the signing of the acquisition of Aptina. Closing is expected to take place before September 30th.

Again, they are interested in the industrial business of Aptina, including their automotive business. Herebelow the press release:

ON Semiconductor to Acquire Aptina Imaging

Now, it's Nikon that will have to procure their 1" sensors from Sony...
You may be right, but i think you are reading an awful lot into a one page press release. For example:

QuoteQuote:
“The pending acquisition of Aptina enables us to accelerate our growth in the attractive automotive and industrial end-markets by leveraging Aptina’s highly differentiated imaging technologies in conjunction with our wide sales reach and strong operational capabilities,” said Keith Jackson, president and CEO of ON Semiconductor. “The addition of Aptina vastly expands our scale and capabilities in image sensors and establishes us as a leader in image sensors for industrial and automotive related applications. I am excited about the possibilities that this transaction presents for both companies.
Later on, they describe Aptina company as:

QuoteQuote:
About Aptina
Aptina is a global provider of intelligent imaging solutions. Aptina has created unique innovations with image sensor technologies such as Aptina Clarity+™ to deliver high-quality, rich images in challenging environments. Aptina patented imaging solutions are in leading consumer electronics devices like smartphones, tablets, laptops, gaming, wearables and digital cameras, as well as embedded and industrial solutions for automotive, surveillance, video conferencing, scanning and medical. For more information, visit Aptina Imaging - Home.
Nowhere in this press release do they say they are going to gut Aptina's photography business for camera sensors.

Again you might be right - but there just isn't enough in this press release to confirm that. By politely listing what Aptina does today, in a way they are advertising their capabilities - far from a "lets gut this company and get it over with" attitude.
06-15-2014, 01:23 AM   #357
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
You may be right, but i think you are reading an awful lot into a one page press release.
(...)
I am indeed but this is part of my job. From experience I consider, given the press release, that the probability of ON Semiconductor not being interested in Aptina's photography business is higher than two-thirds.

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
(...)
Nowhere in this press release do they say they are going to gut Aptina's photography business for camera sensors.
(...)
Indeed and, even if ON Semiconductor are not interested in Aptina's photography business (and I definitely think they aren't), they won't ditch it, they will rather divest it.

My remark about Nikon was merely sarcastic: of course Nikon will have the possibility, should they so wish, to procure their 1" sensors from the acquirer of Aptina's photography business.
06-15-2014, 08:57 AM   #358
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The 645Z seems to be getting Pentax a fair amount of attention. A Nikon owning friend was reading me some of the information from Outdoor Photographer about the Z and seemed very excited about it :-) If one searches google on the Z - lots of comments about it.

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06-15-2014, 12:30 PM - 1 Like   #359
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
The 645Z seems to be getting Pentax a fair amount of attention. A Nikon owning friend was reading me some of the information from Outdoor Photographer about the Z and seemed very excited about it :-) If one searches google on the Z - lots of comments about it.
I know everyone (well maybe not everyone) has been scratching heads and muttering in disbelief that 645z would be released before a 24x36 camera. But maybe Ricoh is not as dumb as we think. Another 24x36 would have received yawns in the general photographic community, just another me too camera. But 645z is truly unique and will command the attention of the general photographic community and will require the trade media to cover it whether they want to or not.

Which release (645z or 24x36) will generate more buzz, free press, attention from non-Pentaxians and increase the awareness of Pentax as a brand? A 24x36 release might be greeted with loud cheers from Pentaxians but will be greeted with loud yawns from everyone else. No one committed to Canon or Nikon 24x36 is going to switch to Pentax, but they very well might switch to (or add) a 645z.

---------- Post added 06-15-14 at 12:36 PM ----------

QuoteQuote:
The newly available FA 645 lenses are available now for the following prices:

PENTAX 645Z

SMC-FA 645 75MM F2.8 $839.00
SMC-FA 645 45MM F2.8 $1,319.00
SMCP-FA 645 150mm f/2.8(IF) $1,679.00
SMC PENTAX-FA* 645 300MM $4,799.95
SMC-FA 645 400MM F5.6 EDIF $3,479.00
SMC-FA 645 ZOOM 45-85 F4.5 $2,879.00
SMCP-FA 645 120mm f/4MACRO $1,679.00
SMCP-FA 645 200MM f/4 (IF) $1,319.00
SMCP-FA 645 80-160/4.5 $2,519.00
SMCP-FA 645 33-55 f/4.5 AL $3,239.00
SMCP-FA 645 ZOOM 150-300MM $3,239.00
SMCP-FA 645 35mm f/3.5 $1,919.00
SMCP-FA 645 55-110 f/5.6 $2,039.00
And this is all we need to know about why 645z is released first.
06-15-2014, 04:22 PM   #360
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Nobody knows for sure where and how Aptina is going to do business in photography. Nikon could buy sensors from Sony, Toshiba, and Renesas, which Nikon has done so far. Panasonic might want to expand its sensor business for other makers if Aptina is gone. Oympus's OM-D E-M1 has Panasonic sensor inside, though Panasonic's recent DMC-FZ1000 is likely to have Sony, which is the same 1-inch sensor with Nikon 1's. Aptina's acquisition has little impact for camera business in my opinion.
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