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04-15-2014, 10:55 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The idea of an RX1-sized 645Z-mirrorless came up rumouring from Pentax at CP+. The idea isn't mine.

Eventually, a Pentax-style compact 645Z-mirrorless with tack-sharp fixed 43mm F/2.8 lens for, say $3900 may be genius. The RX1 sold better than anticipated. Point is, people fork out this much money for a unique product. While they would still refuse to be drawn into another proprietary system of lenses.
It's interesting, but rather marginal. Hard to raise money.
RX1 is not sucessful camera. And it seems to me A7 system changed RX's idea.

It could be better to produce K-mount FF WR mirrorless camera with K-3's functionality and USD2000 price.

04-15-2014, 11:06 AM   #47
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It just blow my mind that ricoh can build this camera and sell it at 8500, but refuse to release a full frame camera!

But really like the fact that they were able to sell it at such an insane msrp price. Can we expect future 645 from ricoh selling at an even more competitive price? That would be a dream!

Go ricoh! Wish this camera is a huge hit!
04-15-2014, 11:25 AM - 1 Like   #48
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Just my opinion - I know nothing

QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
It just blow my mind that ricoh can build this camera and sell it at 8500, but refuse to release a full frame camera!
Using essentially similar electronics and pre-existing inventory of lenses and patents, are we seeing a gradual reveal of the RICOH Plan?
  • Studio / Extreme IQ Landscape = 645z, 14 lenses (No competitor at this level)
  • Action/Reportage/Wedding/Video = ??? (CaNikon Pro-Support) ??? lenses
  • Semi-Pro/Field/Enthusiast = K3, #1 Inventory of APS lenses (No Competitor at this level)
  • MILC Enthusiast = ??? (Sony, Oly) ??? lenses
  • Aspiring Consumer = K50, same APS lenses
  • Super Compact = GR Series
  • MILC Consumer High IQ = Q System, 8 lenses, accessories (No competitor at this level)
There are things that must happen first before FF can happen. Whatever those things are (or were), whenever they have happened, then a FF can be an incremental addition to the line-up.

Last edited by monochrome; 04-15-2014 at 12:52 PM.
04-15-2014, 11:26 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
It just blow my mind that ricoh can build this camera and sell it at 8500, but refuse to release a full frame camera!
This is indeed puzzling. Hopefully in 2014 they will finally overcome their FF 'writers block'.

04-15-2014, 11:51 AM   #50
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Not exactly puzzling, and Ricoh are not "refusing to release a full frame camera".
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
There are things that must happen first before FF can happen. Whatever those things are (or were), whenever they have happened, then a FF can be an incremental addition to the line-up.
04-15-2014, 12:05 PM   #51
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04-15-2014, 12:17 PM   #52
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Some images are at 27MP or so, a few at full 51MP. Not sure if processed from RAW or if direct JPEG.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2898/13876930515_b8dc36abbf_o.jpg - 51MP showing branches etc.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7193/13876967223_28e87f58e2_o.jpg - very nice 27MP example.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7184/13876945923_89854c56ec_o.jpg - a great dusk/sunset 27MP example ISO 400)
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/13877327024_98d49bf990_o.jpg - ISO 1600, 27MP sample

All links are full size flickr images.
04-15-2014, 12:19 PM - 1 Like   #53
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I just pixel peeped at some of those samples at 100%. Good golly, the amount of detail in those shots is insane! I guess that's what $8500 gets you.

04-15-2014, 12:24 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
It just blow my mind that ricoh can build this camera and sell it at 8500, but refuse to release a full frame camera!

But really like the fact that they were able to sell it at such an insane msrp price. Can we expect future 645 from ricoh selling at an even more competitive price? That would be a dream!

Go ricoh! Wish this camera is a huge hit!

The price is still way beyond what most can afford or justify. Then calculate the cost of the lenses. It will be a hit but only a relative one....

---------- Post added 04-15-14 at 09:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Falk:
The RX1 has a street price of $2800, while the body only A7 is $1000 cheaper. You could say that for $1000 you're getting an excellent lens, and I won't argue with that. However, you're not asking Pentax to do it for more than a body-only 645Z, but for less than half the price.

By the way, the cost of the sensor and its contribution to the final price are different things.

Wait, the 645Z's price is arbitrary, right? Convenient... but not acceptable, I'm afraid.
Pentax is indeed able to make a much cheaper camera, but there are factors working in their favor:
- not having to develop a complete electronics+software for the 645Z, instead reusing/adapting the ones made for APS-C
- sharing various costs with APS-C (e.g. production space, distribution, support etc).
With the very low volumes of the DMF market, I think that's a better explanation than "the prices are arbitrary"
Nobody set prices arbitrarily. Prices are set from developing cost, material cost and manufacturing cost etc. with a profit margin in mind.
Arbitrary calculation nothwithstanding, a 50mp MF sensor cost $3500 each in bulk. I'm sure Sony can do it cheaper but we are still talking thousands...
04-15-2014, 12:33 PM - 1 Like   #55
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^^ It is a pro camera in reach of enthusiast amateurs. Some people buy motorbikes. Those aren't cheap either.
04-15-2014, 12:35 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
It just blow my mind that ricoh can build this camera and sell it at 8500, but refuse to release a full frame camera!



But really like the fact that they were able to sell it at such an insane msrp price. Can we expect future 645 from ricoh selling at an even more competitive price? That would be a dream!



Go ricoh! Wish this camera is a huge hit!

FF camera is easy.

FF lens array is hard, especially to stay competitive with Canikon. Sony DSLR and SLT could not. We'll have to see with the A7. And on this night hinge Sony's reputed foray into their own medium format offering, with Canon snooping around as well.

This is all made possible by dramatically lower sensor prices, with more to come. Sony has basically said, in light of poor retail product returns, that if their industrial arm can make money, and if sensors are going to be a commodity, they might as well be Sony commodities.

On another thread I predicted a price surprise for the 645z. Looking at Sony's fab acquisitions over the lat decade it's all been lining up.
04-15-2014, 12:47 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
^^ It is a pro camera in reach of enthusiast amateurs. Some people buy motorbikes. Those aren't cheap either.
645z + all available NIS lenses costs only +/- $51,000 before negotiating with B&H. The lenses ought to have a long life. $8,500 every three years for a body upgrade is peanuts.

There is a real market for a certain class of enthusiasts, much less professional studio / landscape photgraphers
04-15-2014, 12:50 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Then calculate the cost of the lenses.
OK, here's my 645 calculation. Last month I bought the following used lenses (in mint condition): 645 A35/3.5, A75/2.8, A120/4 Macro, 645 Rear converters A1.4x, A2.0x, and a brand new DFA55/2.8 for €2000!
So don't waste your time, the 645 bargain lenses will go first. The longer you wait, the more expensive it will get. Look what have happened to all the first class used K-mount lenses...
04-15-2014, 12:53 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by zantaphia Quote
OK, here's my 645 calculation. Last month I bought the following used lenses (in mint condition): 645 A35/3.5, A75/2.8, A120/4 Macro, 645 Rear converters A1.4x, A2.0x, and a brand new DFA55/2.8 for €2000!
So don't waste your time, the 645 bargain lenses will go first. The longer you wait, the more expensive it will get. Look what have happened to all the first class used K-mount lenses...
I happen to have four FA645 lenses already: the 33-55, 75, 120 Macro and the 150-300. Stiil, the camera very expensive...
04-15-2014, 01:31 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Using essentially similar electronics and pre-existing inventory of lenses and patents, are we seeing a gradual reveal of the RICOH Plan?
  • Studio / Extreme IQ Landscape = 645z, 14 lenses (No competitor at this level)
  • Action/Reportage/Wedding/Video = ??? (CaNikon Pro-Support) ??? lenses
  • Semi-Pro/Field/Enthusiast = K3, #1 Inventory of APS lenses (No Competitor at this level)
  • MILC Enthusiast = ??? (Sony, Oly) ??? lenses
  • Aspiring Consumer = K50, same APS lenses
  • Super Compact = GR Series
  • MILC Consumer High IQ = Q System, 8 lenses, accessories (No competitor at this level)
There are things that must happen first before FF can happen. Whatever those things are (or were), whenever they have happened, then a FF can be an incremental addition to the line-up.
I have the same thoughts Re the current line-up, the capability gap/s that remain, and by deduction, where a FF might logically be pitched in terms of target users.

If those are indeed Pentax/Ricoh's target audience for a FF, you are also quite correct that the accompanying lens line-up and support-systems will need to be well developed and attractive. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the lens line-up is already quite mature and ready to be unleashed. The pro-support area is a little more concerning for a Q4 2014 announcement (unles they're busily arranging things behind the scenes).

Anyway, exciting times in Pentax-land. Ricoh's emerging plan is certainly shaping up to be a good one.
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