Almost Positive about FF Pentax...I think...

Andrew Faires · 05-01-2008, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by kenyee

I'm pretty sure the DA*16-50 is not FF....anything wide angle isn't unless it has a massive front element. E.g., the Sigma 17-70 and 10-20 both have clipped corners at all focal lengths on FF.
As for why it's not marketed as DFA, that would mean they'd have to commit to FF publicly ;-)

Just from what I've seen with the 16-50 on my MX, it's not FF compatable. However, I think it would work with a 1.2/1.3x cropped sensor as it's image circle is a fair bit bigger than the da 14mm's image circle.

falconeye · 05-01-2008, 08:11 AM

Hi, I agree that a FF Pentax/Samsung in 2009 is imminent.

Now, with that being settled for the time being...

How about a test database of DA glass on FF bodies (as been tested on film bodies plus scanner)? Should really be a new topic, maybe even a new category in the lens database. But let's test the subject in this thread here first as it fits the OP...

To make a start.

Here goes a test with FF images!! of DA 40 Ltd. and DA 70 Ltd. on full frame bodies:

DigitalFotoNetz.de :: Thema anzeigen - DA 70 an "Vollformat"?

The images don't cross-link you you would have to click there. It is a German forum but the images will speak for themselves.

I believe we can do what our fellows did in their German forum, and better! (crops, more lenses, a database etc.)

To quote two results:

DA 40mm is very soft in the extreme outmost corners fully open (and soft at f/5.6). Usable. And tack-sharp for larger than APS-C.

DA 70mm is better and looks sharp over the entire image circle at 1024px web resolutions. May be tack-sharp for FF.

Everybody notice the images' black borders? Yes, film has black borders!

**Pål Jensen** · 05-01-2008, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by philmorley

perhaps thats the delay with 60-250, needs to be made ff capable ?????????????????

On the first roadmap the 60-250 was labeled D FA lens; ie full frame. It could be aprinting error but then maybe not...

lol101 · 05-01-2008, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

On the first roadmap the 60-250 was labeled D FA lens; ie full frame. It could be aprinting error but then maybe not...

I don't remember the 60-250 being D-FA but the 200 and 300 sure were D-Fa until recently...

Let's hope all those are FF compatible and wait and see ...

Noisychip · 05-01-2008, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

Hi, I agree that a FF Pentax/Samsung in 2009 is imminent.

Now, with that being settled for the time being...

How about a test database of DA glass on FF bodies (as been tested on film bodies plus scanner)?

We should definitely do this. I started a thread on this topic a couple of month ago to collect some information on FF ability, with quite a number of interesting replies. I'm absolutely sure that there will be a FF Pentax, someday.

Please have a look here:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/25132-da-lense...e-capable.html

NickC · 05-01-2008, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Noisychip

Yes, that's what I'm wondering for years: Why don't they stop developing rectangular sensors?

While a round one might be difficult to manufacture, why not a square one?

36 x 36 mm, that yould be just perfect! Maybe combined with some mechanism to show a vertical or horizontal 3:2 crop in the viewfinder...?

A 36x36 sensor would require an image circle of 51mm whereas a 135 FF only requires a 43mm image circle, so even your FA lenses would vignette. If you want a square sensor in the 135 image circle it would be 30x30mm

Nick

NickC · 05-01-2008, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by philmorley

I think ff is inevitable, sony nikon and canon are all to release new ff this year. I think samsung will be pushing for it (or perhaps even building it and pentax then rebadge) even if pentax are not so keen.

But putting the rumors together we could see the line being

kxxxd entry level below k200d
k200d 10mp
k20d 14mp
kxd pro spec apsc 14mp with new af / metering / fps
kffd

- I think I saw someone mentioning 29mp (but I can't find it now)
kbiggerffd - although not the 645d, it can take 645 lenses

and a convertor? for k mount lenses at about 38mp.

Phil

Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera.

I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand.

Nick

philmorley · 05-01-2008, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by NickC

Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera.

I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand.

Nick

since the dp1 (the little street shooter thing) I thought that is an obvious market for pentax with its pancakes...

Jesus · 05-01-2008, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by NickC

Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera.

I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand.

Nick

Reading the manual of the K10d I bought 2 weeks ago , I am thinking there's a lot of
gimmickry with this camera , maybe 30% really useless stuff.

Like your idea , thoiugh

eurostar · 05-02-2008, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by attack11

you forgot what nikon has done, simply turn off the edges of the sensor when using aps-c sized glass. no problem for pentax going forward.

So you pay 3000 euros to have same quality (or less) than an APS-C sensor?

falconeye · 05-02-2008, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by Noisychip

I started a thread on this topic a couple of month ago to collect some information on FF ability
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/25132-da-lense...e-capable.html

Unfortunately, this thread did not bring up quantified data. Only some thumbnails from YarPcola with the lenshood of his 10-17mm

But your thread was appreciated.

We now need to go beyond and produce own real data.

Originally posted by Noisychip

We should definitely do this.

Any more opinions out there?

@Adam: How about a lens database category for full-frame? If it existed, I would make resolution test shots with the lenses I have (vignetting is easy to see and correct if weak).

I guess more and more people will take FF into account with their lens buying decisions and this site could become THE source of information (hint hint hint hint hint hint

)

heatherslightbox · 05-02-2008, 09:30 AM

Assuming that Pentax is coming out with a FF DSLR, they would be smart to take an idea from the Nikon D3 and have the cropped sensor feature, which would allow both APS-C and full frame lenses to be used on the same body with good results. I think it's a very Pentax idea, allowing for the most flexibility with lenses; after spending $2500 on a body, most people couldn't afford to run out and replace their DA lenses with FF-compatible lenses.

Needless to say, unless a huge pile of cash falls into my lap, I couldn't afford to spend that much on a body, anyhow.

What I could very possibly afford is a smaller Pentax body that would be able to compete with the Sigma DP1. The way Pentax could get a leg up on Sigma is to design it as a poor shooter's Leica--rangefinder size with interchangable lenses--similar to the Oly E420, but even smaller. I could go for something like that

Heather

Cambo · 05-02-2008, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by NickC

Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera.

I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand.

Nick

when the Limiteds first came out. They didn't even make a film body to match. MZ-S was close, but no cigar.

Cheers,
Cameron

Confused · 05-02-2008, 09:38 AM

Hi all

So it seems that a Samsung FF DSLR is now definitely on the cards.....

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/233302-post1.html

Let's hope it's gonna come supplied with a Pentax K-mount and an APS-C mode, guaranteeing backwards compatibility for assisting the majority of existing & future users ?

Best regards
Richard

falconeye · 05-02-2008, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Confused

an APS-C mode, guaranteeing backwards compatibility

Maybe, we stop making this trivial proposal. It is self-evident and even if absent, cropping images is, as I said, a trivial thing to do. Moreover, most APS-C lenses will have their image circle somewhere in between APS-C and FF, depending on zoom and aperture, so I definitely will want to crop myself! (It will be ok though if the Pentax FF crops in JPEG mode and writes a"crop advice" into the RAW file)

What we SHOULD propose however is another trivial proposal:

That the forthcoming Pentax FF doesn't plain refuse to work with a DA lens ...

@Adam: still no statement about the FF database?

05-01-2008, 08:11 AM	#47
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Suggestion: let's make a DA FF test database Hi, I agree that a FF Pentax/Samsung in 2009 is imminent. Now, with that being settled for the time being... How about a test database of DA glass on FF bodies (as been tested on film bodies plus scanner)? Should really be a new topic, maybe even a new category in the lens database. But let's test the subject in this thread here first as it fits the OP... To make a start. Here goes a test with FF images!! of DA 40 Ltd. and DA 70 Ltd. on full frame bodies: DigitalFotoNetz.de :: Thema anzeigen - DA 70 an "Vollformat"? The images don't cross-link you you would have to click there. It is a German forum but the images will speak for themselves. I believe we can do what our fellows did in their German forum, and better! (crops, more lenses, a database etc.) To quote two results: DA 40mm is very soft in the extreme outmost corners fully open (and soft at f/5.6). Usable. And tack-sharp for larger than APS-C. DA 70mm is better and looks sharp over the entire image circle at 1024px web resolutions. May be tack-sharp for FF. Everybody notice the images' black borders? Yes, film has black borders!

05-01-2008, 03:48 PM	#52
NickC Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 53	Limited Body Originally posted by philmorley I think ff is inevitable, sony nikon and canon are all to release new ff this year. I think samsung will be pushing for it (or perhaps even building it and pentax then rebadge) even if pentax are not so keen. But putting the rumors together we could see the line being kxxxd entry level below k200d k200d 10mp k20d 14mp kxd pro spec apsc 14mp with new af / metering / fps kffd - I think I saw someone mentioning 29mp (but I can't find it now) kbiggerffd - although not the 645d, it can take 645 lenses and a convertor? for k mount lenses at about 38mp. Phil Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera. I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand. Nick

05-02-2008, 09:34 AM	#58
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	I've been waiting since 1998... Originally posted by NickC Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera. I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand. Nick when the Limiteds first came out. They didn't even make a film body to match. MZ-S was close, but no cigar. Cheers, Cameron

05-02-2008, 09:38 AM	#59
Confused Inactive Account Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: London Posts: 1,067	Hi all So it seems that a Samsung FF DSLR is now definitely on the cards..... https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/233302-post1.html Let's hope it's gonna come supplied with a Pentax K-mount and an APS-C mode, guaranteeing backwards compatibility for assisting the majority of existing & future users ? Best regards Richard Last edited by Confused; 05-02-2008 at 12:59 PM.

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05-01-2008, 08:05 AM	#46
Andrew Faires Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ontario Posts: 744	Originally posted by kenyee I'm pretty sure the DA*16-50 is not FF....anything wide angle isn't unless it has a massive front element. E.g., the Sigma 17-70 and 10-20 both have clipped corners at all focal lengths on FF. As for why it's not marketed as DFA, that would mean they'd have to commit to FF publicly ;-) Just from what I've seen with the 16-50 on my MX, it's not FF compatable. However, I think it would work with a 1.2/1.3x cropped sensor as it's image circle is a fair bit bigger than the da 14mm's image circle.

05-01-2008, 08:13 AM	#48
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by philmorley perhaps thats the delay with 60-250, needs to be made ff capable ????????????????? On the first roadmap the 60-250 was labeled D FA lens; ie full frame. It could be aprinting error but then maybe not...

05-01-2008, 09:03 AM	#49
lol101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Garennes sur Eure France Photos: Gallery Posts: 899	Originally posted by Pål Jensen On the first roadmap the 60-250 was labeled D FA lens; ie full frame. It could be aprinting error but then maybe not... I don't remember the 60-250 being D-FA but the 200 and 300 sure were D-Fa until recently... Let's hope all those are FF compatible and wait and see ...

05-01-2008, 12:31 PM	#50
Noisychip Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 282	Originally posted by falconeye Hi, I agree that a FF Pentax/Samsung in 2009 is imminent. Now, with that being settled for the time being... How about a test database of DA glass on FF bodies (as been tested on film bodies plus scanner)? We should definitely do this. I started a thread on this topic a couple of month ago to collect some information on FF ability, with quite a number of interesting replies. I'm absolutely sure that there will be a FF Pentax, someday. Please have a look here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/25132-da-lense...e-capable.html

05-01-2008, 03:41 PM	#51
NickC Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 53	Originally posted by Noisychip Yes, that's what I'm wondering for years: Why don't they stop developing rectangular sensors? While a round one might be difficult to manufacture, why not a square one? 36 x 36 mm, that yould be just perfect! Maybe combined with some mechanism to show a vertical or horizontal 3:2 crop in the viewfinder...? A 36x36 sensor would require an image circle of 51mm whereas a 135 FF only requires a 43mm image circle, so even your FA lenses would vignette. If you want a square sensor in the 135 image circle it would be 30x30mm Nick

05-01-2008, 04:45 PM	#53
philmorley Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: in a house in Armidale, Australia Posts: 472	Originally posted by NickC Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera. I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand. Nick since the dp1 (the little street shooter thing) I thought that is an obvious market for pentax with its pancakes...

05-01-2008, 05:44 PM	#54
Jesus Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sedona Az Posts: 216	Originally posted by NickC Where's the limited body to match the limited lenses? I'm thinking something the size of the MZ-S, LX, or *istD (or even MX) with style and build quality to match the lenses. Needs a decent viewfinder, but current AF, FPS (or even manual "wind-on" would suit me), and 14Mp APS sensor would be fine. A "jewel" of a camera. I'm waiting for one of these, cheque book in hand. Nick Reading the manual of the K10d I bought 2 weeks ago , I am thinking there's a lot of gimmickry with this camera , maybe 30% really useless stuff. Like your idea , thoiugh

05-02-2008, 02:58 AM	#55
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	Originally posted by attack11 you forgot what nikon has done, simply turn off the edges of the sensor when using aps-c sized glass. no problem for pentax going forward. So you pay 3000 euros to have same quality (or less) than an APS-C sensor?

05-02-2008, 06:00 AM	#56
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Noisychip I started a thread on this topic a couple of month ago to collect some information on FF ability https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/25132-da-lense...e-capable.html Unfortunately, this thread did not bring up quantified data. Only some thumbnails from YarPcola with the lenshood of his 10-17mm But your thread was appreciated. We now need to go beyond and produce own real data. Originally posted by Noisychip We should definitely do this. Any more opinions out there? @Adam: How about a lens database category for full-frame? If it existed, I would make resolution test shots with the lenses I have (vignetting is easy to see and correct if weak). I guess more and more people will take FF into account with their lens buying decisions and this site could become THE source of information (hint hint hint hint hint hint )

05-02-2008, 09:30 AM	#57
heatherslightbox Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Gainesville, FL Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,599	Assuming that Pentax is coming out with a FF DSLR, they would be smart to take an idea from the Nikon D3 and have the cropped sensor feature, which would allow both APS-C and full frame lenses to be used on the same body with good results. I think it's a very Pentax idea, allowing for the most flexibility with lenses; after spending $2500 on a body, most people couldn't afford to run out and replace their DA lenses with FF-compatible lenses. Needless to say, unless a huge pile of cash falls into my lap, I couldn't afford to spend that much on a body, anyhow. What I could very possibly afford is a smaller Pentax body that would be able to compete with the Sigma DP1. The way Pentax could get a leg up on Sigma is to design it as a poor shooter's Leica--rangefinder size with interchangable lenses--similar to the Oly E420, but even smaller. I could go for something like that Heather

05-02-2008, 02:08 PM	#60
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Confused an APS-C mode, guaranteeing backwards compatibility Maybe, we stop making this trivial proposal. It is self-evident and even if absent, cropping images is, as I said, a trivial thing to do. Moreover, most APS-C lenses will have their image circle somewhere in between APS-C and FF, depending on zoom and aperture, so I definitely will want to crop myself! (It will be ok though if the Pentax FF crops in JPEG mode and writes a"crop advice" into the RAW file) What we SHOULD propose however is another trivial proposal: That the forthcoming Pentax FF doesn't plain refuse to work with a DA lens ... @Adam: still no statement about the FF database?