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07-05-2014, 12:53 PM   #61
mee
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote


---------- Post added 07-05-14 at 03:03 PM ----------



The bane of the Sony NEX system. It's a pack of cigarettes next to a can of beer.

You cannot really put a can of beer in your pocket.

Yep. That is a good way to describe it. just a large (I'll say Soda) can next to a box of er.. jumbo playing cards.

There is no changing physical laws either. So, unless they find a way to design a small, but subpar lens that is easily correctable in software on the camera on the fly, then I don't see this system really being taken advantage of for size purposes only.

I like the true portability of a fixed lens cameras. Look at the Rioch GR or Nikon Coolpix A -- nice formfactor that is truly small. Only thing keeping me from them currently is price! Most Compact ILCs can't compete in size due to the nature of lens design.


Last edited by mee; 07-05-2014 at 01:09 PM.
07-05-2014, 01:59 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kayaker-J Quote
And that's fine with me. I'm thinking that to finally get the 28-32mm FF-equivalent prime lens I want in APS-C for walkaround, and for landscape plus other border-to-border IQ-critical subjects, I'm going to have to wait for a 24mp no-AA filter GRi. After the price drops by a helpful margin, of course.
A bridge camera from Ricoh with APS-C would be interesting.

Also, the whole ILC bayonet system might be dated. Most people don't do telephoto, a specialty of the SLR. We have the Fuji X100S and the Ricoh GR both with add-on lenses that do excellent work for the longer and wider. A re-think here key be in order.

And as a marketing strategy it could actually entice users to own more than one higher-end camera. This drove the industry for decades and shows little sign of abating. Save the DSLR for the telephoto, the macro the super wides, the high-speed AF, and get a mirrorless out there for snaps, travel, super-rugged, anything within 24-100mm, and maybe a 28-250+ bridge camera.

Lots of market space here.
07-05-2014, 04:48 PM   #63
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Ricoh with the smaller formfactor cameras and Pentax with the larger really do balance each other. Plus the technology from the Pentax branded cameras can trickle down into the Ricoh branded cameras; the knowledge gained from R&D into the next K-3 (as example) surely will find its way into the next K-50, the next GR, and already the 645Z.

Ricoh gained harmony ..a balance... in it's camera offerings with Pentax.
07-05-2014, 05:35 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
A bridge camera from Ricoh with APS-C would be interesting.

Also, the whole ILC bayonet system might be dated. Most people don't do telephoto, a specialty of the SLR. We have the Fuji X100S and the Ricoh GR both with add-on lenses that do excellent work for the longer and wider. A re-think here key be in order..
GR can go no longer, only with cropping. Only wider as it has a wide converter. It is an interesting idea to have converters, though, but Ricoh never delivered on a teleconverter, never thought of a GR in a more universal, expandable sense, even when they had a GR as a niche market defining camera.

With all due respect to them, Ricoh is not truly innovative or forward thinking when it comes to photography. They are more conservatively entrenched than Pentax. And their rationale is weird: in a world when a camera can be panned to make any wide-angle shot — even panoramic — for an already wide-angle camera they deliver an even wider wideangle converter, and not a teleconverter (say, very conservative 40mm or 50mm)?

Many of their photography related products are utter marketing disasters left in oblivion (the GXR). And others left to conservative upgrades and planning. The GR could have been an APS-C camera long ago, but it did not come to fruition. Fujifilm came with an APS-C mirrorless fixed lens camera in 2010, Sigma Dp2 in 2009, Dp1 in 2008, Leica X1 in 2009, Olympus with Pen 1 in 2009 etc. Ricoh only in 2013, as last of all manufacturers who dabbled with APS-C and larger sensors.

It is worthwhile to point out about Pentax and Ricoh — those are the brands that grow most passionately only in the imagination of their users.


Last edited by Uluru; 07-05-2014 at 10:05 PM.
07-05-2014, 05:48 PM   #65
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Yep. I've taken an arrow or two in the back the last couple of days for suggesting that the way forward for Pentax might be in bold innovation; so brother, I hear ya. The patient is doing fine, BTW.

Last edited by Kayaker-J; 07-05-2014 at 06:10 PM.
07-05-2014, 06:21 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
The GR could have been an APS-C camera long ago, but it did not. Fujifilm came with an APS-C mirrorless fixed lens camera in 2010, Sigma Dp2 in 2009, Dp1 in 2008, Leica X1 in 2009 etc. Ricoh only in 2013, as last of all manufacturers.

It is worthwhile to point out about Pentax and Ricoh those are the brands that grow most passionately only in the imagination of their users.

Did you forget Canon? And is there some award for launching early? I'm not seeing one as none of those manufacturers have a lock on that (currently) niche market.

And it is a niche market, even if I think mirrorless dedicated cameras (not just cellphones) are going to spread in the future in usage. Which I do.

However, I get the feeling mirrorless as a whole is more a marketed term that has been hyped by.. marketing.. more for enthusiasts who already have large cameras. Simply because there is more money in reinventing the wheel and selling a new system than attempting to squeeze more innovation out of the traditional systems.

The PoV in these forums tends to be single minded.. as if cameras can only come in one format, shape, or size. And, if one is not jumping in line to that format, shape or size, that they have missed the boat and are doomed to failure. The market is simply expanding in formfactors not diminishing. Part of that by marketing and partly because of consumer demand.

The same could be said about computing devices (which really, a digital camera is just a specialized computer). When laptops started to really become commonplace, the news and forums were ablaze with "the desktop PC is dead." Then we saw the trend towards smartphones and the marketed hype over tablets and, again, the news and forums were ablaze with "the desktop PC is dead."

Yet Microsoft just pushed a rather sizable update to Windows 8 (and another one in a couple of months) because they discovered the desktop PC is most certainly NOT dead. While the desktop PC market undoubtedly shrank, it is still alive and well. Many offices across the globe still operate desktop PCs. Kids and Teens still build/buy desktop gaming PCs. I'm typing, right now, from a desktop PC (hooked to a Television). The form still has function.

Cameras are the same way. Conventional SLR APS-C and FF bodies and their respective lenses will still be used and desired. The market is just being spread across more broadly. So we'll see more advanced Point and Shoots, smaller ILCs, and larger ILCs. As well as specialty cameras (such as that Ricoh pano camera). More systems, more choice. Less silver bullet mentality, please.
07-05-2014, 06:43 PM   #67
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I don't get the either/or thing. Why set up battle lines?
07-05-2014, 08:09 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kayaker-J Quote
I don't get the either/or thing. Why set up battle lines?
Read more forum posts. You'll see many here already have!

07-05-2014, 08:58 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
GR can go no longer, only with cropping. Only wider as it has a wide converter. It is an interesting idea, though, but Ricoh never delivered on a teleconverter, never thought of GR in a more universal, expandable sense, even when they had a GR as a niche market defining camera.

With all due respect to them, Ricoh is not truly innovative or forward thinking when it comes to photography. They are more conservatively entrenched than Pentax. Many of their photography related products are utter marketing disasters left in oblivion (the GXR). And others left to conservative upgrades and planning. The GR could have been an APS-C camera long ago, but it did not. Fujifilm came with an APS-C mirrorless fixed lens camera in 2010, Sigma Dp2 in 2009, Dp1 in 2008, Leica X1 in 2009 etc. Ricoh only in 2013, as last of all manufacturers.

It is worthwhile to point out about Pentax and Ricoh those are the brands that grow most passionately only in the imagination of their users.
You are kidding, right?

The GXR was one of the most technically innovative ideas around, if flawed in execution. They took the sensor and lens combo and zeroed in on it as being the means to an end, where optics and sensor (and much less dust) would be aligned in a way an ILC system cannot be.

Of course sensors were still dynamic as was AF, and the GXR modules simply were too expensive.

Ido not think the GR or any other camera could have been a compact APS-C earlier. The Nikon A is a case in point. No one did it, then they all came out about the same time (the X100 kind of jumped the gun and the first version wasn't all that good). Leica was in price no man's land and got terrible reviews. Waiting to get it right at the right price point made the GR a cult camera (again).
07-05-2014, 10:17 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
You are kidding, right?

The GXR was one of the most technically innovative ideas around, if flawed in execution. They took the sensor and lens combo and zeroed in on it as being the means to an end,...
No I am not kidding. The GXR even if good in some theory, was not ready for the market of still developing sensor and EVF/LCD technology. The gain in matching the lens to a sensor is minimal as any mirrorless camera with a newer sensor and same good old lens can deliver a better image and more versatile imaging experience (ISO boost, DR, etc.). Instead of dumping only a camera every several years, users must dump both lensor and the body, as technologies keep changing for both.

So indeed, the GXR was a plain disaster. Finally users left in oblivion, given to other brands, product abandoned completely. Now when all the same people who coined such a GXR flop, and a GR with no universal appeal and outreach (but a totally niche product) are in charge of Ricoh Imaging's senior development and planning team, I am indeed freaked out. (Again, with all due respect to them as persons).

Thank God they are not competent in DSLR design to influence it and make an uber-niche weird gizmo out of it, yet I believe Pentax engineers imagined the K-3 and 645Z as they were planned and scheduled long ago.

Last edited by Uluru; 07-05-2014 at 10:26 PM.
07-06-2014, 01:51 AM   #71
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I think the GXR concept was ahead of its time. Now we have cheap APS-C sensors and even concepts like monochrome and curved sensors. Imagine if the zoom modules had been based on 1-inch sensors and the primes on curved sensors. With K-mount and Q- mount modules.

I personally don't agree that the GXR was poorly implemented, at least from an engineering point of view. The mount rails and ergonomics are really good. I just think Ricoh didn't show enough commitment to it. I suspect they lost interest when the plan became "buy Pentax".

It always strikes me that the GXR was blasted for being expensive and not having any way to upgrade the sensor separately from the lens, but not long after everyone was going gaga for cameras like the Fuji X100, which is every bit as expensive and even less upgradable. Evidently a little bit of retro goes a long way.
07-06-2014, 04:14 AM   #72
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I expect ricoh to develop the GR line like fuji does with it's x-line. Expand on the GR concept with an ILC and/or a zoom model, a 35mm equivalent 50mm equivalent etc..
07-06-2014, 07:20 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I expect ricoh to develop the GR line like fuji does with it's x-line. Expand on the GR concept with an ILC and/or a zoom model, a 35mm equivalent 50mm equivalent etc..
I certainly hope this is the case. Can you imagine a GR with a proper 24-90mm optical zoom range, on-chip PDAF and a built-in EVF? Sure, it'll be substantially larger than the current GR - but how much smaller and lighter than a K3 or K50 - especially with lens attached? If such a camera were introduced, it could be time to put my K-mount gear up for sale. Ricoh has demonstrated in the past that it can be very innovative. I hope they'll live up to their reputation.
07-06-2014, 07:41 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Biro Quote
I certainly hope this is the case. Can you imagine a GR with a proper 24-90mm optical zoom range, on-chip PDAF and a built-in EVF? Sure, it'll be substantially larger than the current GR - but how much smaller and lighter than a K3 or K50 - especially with lens attached? If such a camera were introduced, it could be time to put my K-mount gear up for sale. Ricoh has demonstrated in the past that it can be very innovative. I hope they'll live up to their reputation.
An APS-C compact camera with a 16-60mm lens (equ. 24-90mm) wouldn't be that small nor light, just have a look at the Leica X Vario and its Vario-Elmar 18-46 f/3.5-6.4 Asph.

Compared to the 16-60mm you are dreaming about, the Vario-Elmar is longer on the wide angle side, much shorter on the telephoto side, has a small maximum aperture, in particular on the telephoto side, and is nevertheless quite bulky.

07-06-2014, 07:58 AM   #75
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The APS-C Compact could have collapsible lens to make it considerable smaller than Leica X vario. Fi like Sony Nex 3n with 16-50 mm or Canon G1X.
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