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07-31-2014, 03:03 PM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not sure about that. if you read the notes to page 14 at the bottom of the page below the regional breakdown it says "Other - Digital cameras". Anyway, even if this point in their report is ambiguous, the general situation isn't much altered.
Yeah, you'll note I was careful in my own post. If cameras were the only thing in "Other", why call it that way at all - as opposed to "Digital Cameras"... We'd need to know the relative importance of cameras in there, but since they are the only thing listed in that category, I think we can presume that they are the most important element in it...

07-31-2014, 03:04 PM   #272
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I don't think is to late for a Pentax FF, but a little late certainly is. But there more to think about. Recent rumors point to new competitors on the MF market, exactly the two grand, Canon and Nikon, with announcement on Photokina. This way, Pentax will have a fierce competition on this market. More, recent announce from different shops, show that Pentax 645z is already available in stock. So, the rumors that the entire production run for this year of 645z is already sold on pre-orders is fake.

From my point of view, Pentax can launch a FF camera in December 2015, but this will demage the company image for a very long time, and they will start to loose costumers at a very high rate, if they will not present it this fall. At least as a mock-up, with a precise calendar for launch, as they did with 645z.
07-31-2014, 03:06 PM - 1 Like   #273
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A great question for a Photokina interview would be percentage of camera sales that come from outside of Japan. Let's see what they say.
07-31-2014, 03:39 PM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not sure about that. if you read the notes to page 14 at the bottom of the page below the regional breakdown it says "Other - Digital cameras". Anyway, even if this point in their report is ambiguous, the general situation isn't much altered unless the logistics business accounts for a hefty slice of the total.
I know, and it's misleading.
Other actually includes:
  • Ricoh Imaging
  • Ricoh Leasing
  • Ricoh Logistics System
  • Ricoh Creative Service
  • Ricoh Finance Nederland
Ricoh Leasing, Ricoh Logistics System and Ricoh Creative Service are Japanese.

JimmyDranox: there are rumors about everyone and their dog entering the medium format market
Right now perhaps there are other things which are needed most, but I agree, the K-mount should be expanded into "FF" territory sooner rather than later.

07-31-2014, 03:54 PM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The odd thing to me is that FF hasn't simply been dropped in favour of a MILC system since demand for that is strongest in Japan and Asia and that is where Ricoh seem to make about seventeen out of every twenty dollars. Well, who knows. To be or not to be unless it sells in Tokyo is maybe the question.
But they do have an entire MILC line - they've released viral images of a new line extension body just today.

And again, as far as 645 pushing other things aside - it's the lenses - look at the stream of DA645 updates appearing and patents and rumors of same!!

If anything was changed I'd bet optical engineers and production plans were shifted to 645 lenses from FF lenses, hence no FF body since no new FF lenses.

I strongly believe they'll eventually do a FF to compete with the D800 and leave the 610 alone.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-31-2014 at 04:06 PM.
07-31-2014, 04:18 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

I strongly believe they'll eventually do a FF to compete with the D800 and leave the 610 alone.
I certainly hope so, but suspect a 24mp FF body....

---------- Post added 08-01-14 at 01:20 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I don't think is to late for a Pentax FF, but a little late certainly is. But there more to think about. Recent rumors point to new competitors on the MF market, exactly the two grand, Canon and Nikon, with announcement on Photokina. This way, Pentax will have a fierce competition on this market. More, recent announce from different shops, show that Pentax 645z is already available in stock. So, the rumors that the entire production run for this year of 645z is already sold on pre-orders is fake. .
Nikon and Canon MF rumors has been around since 1979.....
The fact that cameras are available in stock doesn't mean that pre-orders are false. Sold out means that Pentax (the factory) have sold them; not the shops....

It probably sells very well and Pentax needs to exploit the momentum and release updated lenses as soon as possible....

---------- Post added 08-01-14 at 01:22 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
They have definitively and categorically said, since the last Photokina (so, almost two years now) that they will release a FF camera. I can't be bothered finding all the interview references where they made those statements, but they are easy enough to find.
I think they have been far more vague than that....
07-31-2014, 04:24 PM - 3 Likes   #277
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Products get delayed because of dependencies that are not satisfied. The 645z needed a new sensor to become available and the K-3's processor. That's why it's here now.

Full frame K-mount needs a whole set of lenses that are as good as Nikon or Canon's, and especially better than Sigma. If they released a FF camera without a set of lenses for it, it would just be a gift to Sigma. If the cupboard was bare when Ricoh took over, 2-3 years is not an unreasonable amount of time to wait.

I'm really curious to see where the "promises" to release a full frame camera came from. I don't remember seeing any. I can remember Ricoh representatives saying they were working on designs for full frame cameras when pressed, but it's a stretch to say that constitutes a promise, especially when translated into a different language.

Companies like Pentax, Hoya and Ricoh are at liberty to release or not release the products they think will sell. I don't think there is any blame to assign. If you really do need full frame and you have been using the wrong system for your needs, where does the blame lie?
07-31-2014, 04:33 PM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I certainly hope so, but suspect a 24mp FF body....

---------- Post added 08-01-14 at 01:20 AM ----------



Nikon and Canon MF rumors has been around since 1979.....
The fact that cameras are available in stock doesn't mean that pre-orders are false. Sold out means that Pentax (the factory) have sold them; not the shops....

It probably sells very well and Pentax needs to exploit the momentum and release updated lenses as soon as possible....

---------- Post added 08-01-14 at 01:22 AM ----------



I think they have been far more vague than that....
Yes, you're right. But I remember some folks here saying that 645z is such a big success even before the camera was release to the market, that only pre-orders will be available this year. And I'm pretty sure that those people has not intentionally misinforming us. They just told us what they have heard from some ''reliable sources''. Now, is only one month after the launch, and the camera is already available in stock. This raise some questions. Many questions.


Last edited by JimmyDranox; 07-31-2014 at 04:40 PM.
07-31-2014, 05:23 PM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
and the camera is already available in stock
Same story with the K-3 Silver Limited - but we suspect they increased production to meet high pre-build demand and overshot just a bit. The fact that the two largest dealers in North America have at least one $9,000 camera body listed as In Stock doesn't really indicate much.
07-31-2014, 05:36 PM - 2 Likes   #280
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The prophet Asahiman has spoken; hopefully this time he is right, or he wishes to avoid yesteryear's failed attempt at prophecy.

In short, Asahiman says:

- No FF this Photokina. Don't expect it.

- There will be new Q and some APS-C lenses (coated in HD?), a new lens is perhaps that zoom 150-450 or thereabouts.

- The 70-200 will not be announced yet. (Who knows when)

- The production of TCs is apparently warming up. Lots of demands, but supply is still inadequate.

And that's it.

Possible reason for no FF this year: aliens have eaten all FF plans and cameras from Pentax. This info comes from an other source.

In short, it's a typical Pentax saga: when you optimistically expect the best, be reminded that it can be much worse than what you pessimistically feared. And you won't be disappointed

Last edited by Uluru; 07-31-2014 at 05:44 PM.
07-31-2014, 06:17 PM - 2 Likes   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
But I remember some folks here saying that 645z is such a big success even before the camera was release to the market, that only pre-orders will be available this year.
Pre-orders at the consumer level or pre-orders at the wholesale level? I do not think it was ever clarified. As far as Ricoh and production is concerned if B&H orders 25 units those are 'sold' even if they then sit on the shelf at B&H.

QuoteQuote:
Full frame K-mount needs a whole set of lenses that are as good as Nikon or Canon's, and especially better than Sigma. If they released a FF camera without a set of lenses for it, it would just be a gift to Sigma.
Yes, they could likely release a FF with a bare minimum of lenses, both legacy and maybe re-badged. But if they want to do it right, maybe they need more time. Why jump into a highly competitive market with a second rate line up? Who will buy? A few Pentax enthusiasts that already have most of the lenses they need. Where is the profit in that?

Lots of rumors abound about others entering the MF market, especially now that a good CMOS sensor is available. So if you are Ricoh and could add a FF to the line which will be mostly a me too camera competing with well entrenched companies or a MF camera and be first to market in that segment (defined as almost affordable MF) which would you do? Many people complaining here for years that Ricoh missed the boat on affordable FF. Maybe they did, and maybe they know that so they pushed all resources into making sure they do not miss the boat on the MF market.

What I mean is will it really matter at this point if they release FF this fall or two years from now? I don't think so, those that needed (had to have) a FF already left. But if they want to dominate the MF market now is the time, get out front and run with new camera, new lenses, new accessories. Create and define that market, let everyone else play catch up. They can release a FF next year and they will still have to start almost from nothing to build that market because they will need to take users away from others. In MF, they are almost alone.

It might not be popular here, but jumping 100% into the MF market and letting the FF go for now may, FROM A STRATEGIC SENSE, be a stroke of genius. Would you rather be #3 or 4 or 5 in the FF market or #1 in the MF market? Which strategy gets you more eventual market share, brand recognition, media publicity and at the same time opens doors into a world of professional photography that Canon and Nikon do not compete in?
07-31-2014, 06:31 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Would you rather be #3 or 4 or 5 in the FF market or #1 in the MF market?
Both
07-31-2014, 06:37 PM   #283
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So who is selling their Pentax gear for a low low price come September 22nd after Photokina is in the books? I'm looking for some bargains!
07-31-2014, 06:53 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tesla Quote
Both
Me too. And maybe they will still surprise us.
07-31-2014, 07:08 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Pre-orders at the consumer level or pre-orders at the wholesale level? I do not think it was ever clarified. As far as Ricoh and production is concerned if B&H orders 25 units those are 'sold' even if they then sit on the shelf at B&H.

Yes, they could likely release a FF with a bare minimum of lenses, both legacy and maybe re-badged. But if they want to do it right, maybe they need more time. Why jump into a highly competitive market with a second rate line up? Who will buy? A few Pentax enthusiasts that already have most of the lenses they need. Where is the profit in that?

Lots of rumors abound about others entering the MF market, especially now that a good CMOS sensor is available. So if you are Ricoh and could add a FF to the line which will be mostly a me too camera competing with well entrenched companies or a MF camera and be first to market in that segment (defined as almost affordable MF) which would you do? Many people complaining here for years that Ricoh missed the boat on affordable FF. Maybe they did, and maybe they know that so they pushed all resources into making sure they do not miss the boat on the MF market.

What I mean is will it really matter at this point if they release FF this fall or two years from now? I don't think so, those that needed (had to have) a FF already left. But if they want to dominate the MF market now is the time, get out front and run with new camera, new lenses, new accessories. Create and define that market, let everyone else play catch up. They can release a FF next year and they will still have to start almost from nothing to build that market because they will need to take users away from others. In MF, they are almost alone.

It might not be popular here, but jumping 100% into the MF market and letting the FF go for now may, FROM A STRATEGIC SENSE, be a stroke of genius. Would you rather be #3 or 4 or 5 in the FF market or #1 in the MF market? Which strategy gets you more eventual market share, brand recognition, media publicity and at the same time opens doors into a world of professional photography that Canon and Nikon do not compete in?
That all makes sense if the MF market is one worth pursuing by Ricoh if not outright capturing. As everyone here knows, there's not a lot of conviction in the answer to that question. If you're selling a $30,000 camera, you don't really care if MF is a bona fide niche or not just as long as you sell some cameras. Ricoh's gamble is different than that.
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