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07-31-2014, 01:27 PM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Ricoh said supposedly there was a worldwide 2,000 initial launch of the Z's, right? At B&H they are in stock, no waiting list, no back order.
In a day or 2, adorama will have them in stock, again, no back order.
So B&H and Adorama filled all their pre-orders and now their second shipment has arrived, which they ordered on spec. for inventory. Business as usual for the two largest US dealers. Who knows - maybe they have two each on hand.

I don't really know anything - but - I thought the initial planned production was 2000 units through December, 2014. That doesn't mean production plans did not change in response to pre-orders. There were some rumors that Japanese institutional orders were larger than expected.

When it was said that 645Z pushed many other things to the side, what is inferred is that production plans changed to meet the surprising pre-production indications of interest. A FF camera without FF lenses is pointless. For my money, I'd bet the lens engineers were reassigned to updating the 645 lenses with IS and specifically for the 44x33 sensor (so no more D-FA645).

Furthermore, we have no idea how much profit a run of a 'small' number of 645Z creates, versus a run of x number of a mythical FF in the same (limited capacity) production facility. A company like Pentax will do the most profitable thing possible at any given time.


Last edited by monochrome; 07-31-2014 at 04:01 PM.
07-31-2014, 01:44 PM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Okay but do you attribute anything to Ricoh that's not happening well? It's not realistic to believe all good things come from Ricoh and only bad things came and still come from Hoya.
So far I don't see evidence pointing to Ricoh doing "bad things". All I know is that they're moving slower than I expected/hoped, but as for why, I can only guess.
07-31-2014, 01:49 PM - 1 Like   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by Raffwal Quote
Asahi man tends to know things. I never expected a FF Pentax to arrive because we've been let down so many times and for so long. But never the less, what a f**king joke this is. Year after year, exhibition after exhibition, it's just around the corner. And so many seem to have believed it once again. Like a cat chasing its own tail, almost at reach but never quite there.
To be fair, I don't think Pentax has erver promised an FF camera and certainly not one thats right around the corner...
07-31-2014, 01:55 PM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
To be fair, I don't think Pentax has erver promised an FF camera and certainly not one thats right around the corner...
That's how it would be such a surprise when it is announced!

... the super secret FF we've all be waiting for!

07-31-2014, 02:29 PM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
To be fair, I don't think Pentax has erver promised an FF camera and certainly not one thats right around the corner...
They have definitively and categorically said, since the last Photokina (so, almost two years now) that they will release a FF camera. I can't be bothered finding all the interview references where they made those statements, but they are easy enough to find.

So, to be fair (to us, the patiently waiting loyal customers) I don't think two years is an unreasonable amount of time to begin saying "well?..."
07-31-2014, 02:31 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Doundounba Quote
Regarding financial numbers: would this be it? Looking at it, Cameras are in the "Other" category, but are not the only thing in it. Sales in this category have gone down -0.1% year over year. An interesting stat is that while Ricoh at large does 28% of its business in the Americas, in the "Other" category that percentage is only 3.8% (numbers are from p. 14). Also in the Other category, sales in the Americas are down 9.5% year over year...

EDIT: Oh, and I think monochrome meant 1Q2014 earnings, not 1Q2015, unless he has a Delorean with a flux capacitor... :-P
So far as I can tell from that page (page 14 in their report), Ricoh's sales of digital cameras are 85.66 per cent in Japan ("domestic"), 3.78 per cent in the Americas, 5.69 per cent in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, and 4.87 per cent in Other (presumably the rest of the world excluding the above) rounding it out. Total sales are 28,573 million yen.

Perhaps this is all wrong? if not, then perhaps one can see one of the issues here. Ricoh are overwhelmingly a Japan-centric camera operation. One would presume from these figures - maybe wrongly - that if something won't work in Japan then it won't work period. FF is neither here nor there if there is no demand for it in Japan. The demand for it in Europe and North Amerca wouldn't cover even 10 per cent of Ricoh's sales.

The odd thing to me is that FF hasn't simply been dropped in favour of a MILC system since demand for that is strongest in Japan and Asia and that is where Ricoh seem to make about seventeen out of every twenty dollars. Well, who knows. To be or not to be unless it sells in Tokyo is maybe the question.
07-31-2014, 02:48 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
So far as I can tell from that page (page 14 in their report), Ricoh's sales of digital cameras are 85.66 per cent in Japan ("domestic"), 3.78 per cent in the Americas, 5.69 per cent in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, and 4.87 per cent in Other (presumably the rest of the world excluding the above) rounding it out. Total sales are 28,573 million yen.

Perhaps this is all wrong?
Yep
"Other" includes not only Ricoh Imaging, but also their financial and logistic business - which I suppose is very Japanese-centric.
07-31-2014, 02:56 PM   #278
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yep
"Other" includes not only Ricoh Imaging, but also their financial and logistic business - which I suppose is very Japanese-centric.
Not sure about that. if you read the notes to page 14 at the bottom of the page below the regional breakdown it says "Other - Digital cameras". Anyway, even if this point in their report is ambiguous, the general situation isn't much altered unless the logistics business accounts for a hefty slice of the total.


Last edited by mecrox; 07-31-2014 at 03:01 PM.
07-31-2014, 03:03 PM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not sure about that. if you read the notes to page 14 at the bottom of the page below the regional breakdown it says "Other - Digital cameras". Anyway, even if this point in their report is ambiguous, the general situation isn't much altered.
Yeah, you'll note I was careful in my own post. If cameras were the only thing in "Other", why call it that way at all - as opposed to "Digital Cameras"... We'd need to know the relative importance of cameras in there, but since they are the only thing listed in that category, I think we can presume that they are the most important element in it...
07-31-2014, 03:04 PM   #280
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I don't think is to late for a Pentax FF, but a little late certainly is. But there more to think about. Recent rumors point to new competitors on the MF market, exactly the two grand, Canon and Nikon, with announcement on Photokina. This way, Pentax will have a fierce competition on this market. More, recent announce from different shops, show that Pentax 645z is already available in stock. So, the rumors that the entire production run for this year of 645z is already sold on pre-orders is fake.

From my point of view, Pentax can launch a FF camera in December 2015, but this will demage the company image for a very long time, and they will start to loose costumers at a very high rate, if they will not present it this fall. At least as a mock-up, with a precise calendar for launch, as they did with 645z.
07-31-2014, 03:06 PM - 1 Like   #281
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A great question for a Photokina interview would be percentage of camera sales that come from outside of Japan. Let's see what they say.
07-31-2014, 03:39 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not sure about that. if you read the notes to page 14 at the bottom of the page below the regional breakdown it says "Other - Digital cameras". Anyway, even if this point in their report is ambiguous, the general situation isn't much altered unless the logistics business accounts for a hefty slice of the total.
I know, and it's misleading.
Other actually includes:
  • Ricoh Imaging
  • Ricoh Leasing
  • Ricoh Logistics System
  • Ricoh Creative Service
  • Ricoh Finance Nederland
Ricoh Leasing, Ricoh Logistics System and Ricoh Creative Service are Japanese.

JimmyDranox: there are rumors about everyone and their dog entering the medium format market
Right now perhaps there are other things which are needed most, but I agree, the K-mount should be expanded into "FF" territory sooner rather than later.
07-31-2014, 03:54 PM   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The odd thing to me is that FF hasn't simply been dropped in favour of a MILC system since demand for that is strongest in Japan and Asia and that is where Ricoh seem to make about seventeen out of every twenty dollars. Well, who knows. To be or not to be unless it sells in Tokyo is maybe the question.
But they do have an entire MILC line - they've released viral images of a new line extension body just today.

And again, as far as 645 pushing other things aside - it's the lenses - look at the stream of DA645 updates appearing and patents and rumors of same!!

If anything was changed I'd bet optical engineers and production plans were shifted to 645 lenses from FF lenses, hence no FF body since no new FF lenses.

I strongly believe they'll eventually do a FF to compete with the D800 and leave the 610 alone.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-31-2014 at 04:06 PM.
07-31-2014, 04:18 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

I strongly believe they'll eventually do a FF to compete with the D800 and leave the 610 alone.
I certainly hope so, but suspect a 24mp FF body....

---------- Post added 08-01-14 at 01:20 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I don't think is to late for a Pentax FF, but a little late certainly is. But there more to think about. Recent rumors point to new competitors on the MF market, exactly the two grand, Canon and Nikon, with announcement on Photokina. This way, Pentax will have a fierce competition on this market. More, recent announce from different shops, show that Pentax 645z is already available in stock. So, the rumors that the entire production run for this year of 645z is already sold on pre-orders is fake. .
Nikon and Canon MF rumors has been around since 1979.....
The fact that cameras are available in stock doesn't mean that pre-orders are false. Sold out means that Pentax (the factory) have sold them; not the shops....

It probably sells very well and Pentax needs to exploit the momentum and release updated lenses as soon as possible....

---------- Post added 08-01-14 at 01:22 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
They have definitively and categorically said, since the last Photokina (so, almost two years now) that they will release a FF camera. I can't be bothered finding all the interview references where they made those statements, but they are easy enough to find.
I think they have been far more vague than that....
07-31-2014, 04:24 PM - 3 Likes   #285
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Products get delayed because of dependencies that are not satisfied. The 645z needed a new sensor to become available and the K-3's processor. That's why it's here now.

Full frame K-mount needs a whole set of lenses that are as good as Nikon or Canon's, and especially better than Sigma. If they released a FF camera without a set of lenses for it, it would just be a gift to Sigma. If the cupboard was bare when Ricoh took over, 2-3 years is not an unreasonable amount of time to wait.

I'm really curious to see where the "promises" to release a full frame camera came from. I don't remember seeing any. I can remember Ricoh representatives saying they were working on designs for full frame cameras when pressed, but it's a stretch to say that constitutes a promise, especially when translated into a different language.

Companies like Pentax, Hoya and Ricoh are at liberty to release or not release the products they think will sell. I don't think there is any blame to assign. If you really do need full frame and you have been using the wrong system for your needs, where does the blame lie?
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