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08-03-2014, 01:31 AM - 1 Like   #361
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
the real question is whether the FA Ltd and D-FA lineup is big enough to launch a FF DSLR
QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Short answer is no, IMHO.
Why so negative?
Before Sony launched the A7 series of full-frames (A7, A7r, now A7s), there wasn't a single full-frame E-mount lens in existence.
In contrast, as we all know, Pentax already has lenses in their current catalog that would work straight away on a Pentax FF, and others (eg Sigma & Tamron) do too. With autofocus and auto aperture, and not needing any adapter.


Last edited by rawr; 08-03-2014 at 01:37 AM.
08-03-2014, 03:50 AM   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
I always told myself that if Pentax released a full frame camera I would buy the FA43 with it. Maybe they will offer it as a kit.
That's the *only* reason I want a FF Pentax - to use my 43mm and 31mm as I used them on my MZ-3. Multiply them by 1.5 and they lose all their magic. If there were fast (rather than slow pancake) DA Limiteds, I'd switch in a shot, but a 21/3.2 on crop sensor can't be compared with a 31/1.8on a 35mm frame.

Funnily enough, when I mentioned this to a Pentax Pro dealer, he (a Nikon semi-pro shooter) said the only thing keeping him from switching from Nikon full frame to Pentax APS-C was his investment in Nikon big glass.
08-03-2014, 08:35 AM   #363
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Why so negative? Before Sony launched the A7 series of full-frames (A7, A7r, now A7s), there wasn't a single full-frame E-mount lens in existence. In contrast, as we all know, Pentax already has lenses in their current catalog that would work straight away on a Pentax FF, and others (eg Sigma & Tamron) do too. With autofocus and auto aperture, and not needing any adapter.
Not really negative. I expect we will eventually see a FF system from Ricoh. Maybe even soon. I was just trying to point out that "to do it right" they will need a full line of zooms and primes, IMHO. Sony has a reputation for throwing things into the market and seeing what works. They have a massive marketing machine that allows them to do that. Ricoh does not seem to work that way, they don't really have much of a marketing machine at least in the US. So yes, I agree with you 100% they COULD release a FF without all the lenses in my list and rely on third party ones and 20 year old models on their own list. But they will not. When they have a good set of zooms to go with the remodeled prime lenses in the catalog, then we will see FF.
08-03-2014, 08:59 AM   #364
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I think Ricoh releases FF with the zooms to go along with it in one swoop.

Releasing the lenses first is a bit too-much of the cat-out-of-the-bag in my estimation. But we'll see. Heck they might not release a FF at all.

08-03-2014, 08:59 AM   #365
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Not really negative. I expect we will eventually see a FF system from Ricoh. Maybe even soon. I was just trying to point out that "to do it right" they will need a full line of zooms and primes, IMHO. Sony has a reputation for throwing things into the market and seeing what works. They have a massive marketing machine that allows them to do that. Ricoh does not seem to work that way, they don't really have much of a marketing machine at least in the US. So yes, I agree with you 100% they COULD release a FF without all the lenses in my list and rely on third party ones and 20 year old models on their own list. But they will not. When they have a good set of zooms to go with the remodeled prime lenses in the catalog, then we will see FF.
And yet that is exactly what they did with the 645D. The camera launched with exactly 1 new lens, and now over 4 years after its launch, there have been a total of 3 new lenses. The rest of the catalogue is fulfilled by old FA lenses.

I don't know of any camera system that required a full lineup of brand new lenses at launch. Canikon FF relied on existing film lenses at launch, with gradual updates over time. To this very day, there are still film lenses in their current catalogues (like the Canon 100-400mm L). All modern mirrorless systems (m4/3, e-mount, x-mount, etc.) started from scratch with just a few primes and/or standard zoom.

Why is there some requirement on a Pentax FF to have a huge and complete lineup of brand new lenses, something that does not seem to hold back any other manufacturer?
08-03-2014, 09:17 AM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
Why is there some requirement on a Pentax FF to have a huge and complete lineup of brand new lenses, something that does not seem to hold back any other manufacturer?
Given the nature of lens manufacturing, which I understand is to produce a run of lenses and hold them in warehouses for up to YEARS, what we don't know is whether Pentax is actually producing FA645 lenses or just running off old stock. It could well be that a part of the economics of the 645D / Z relies on selling an existing inventory of FA645 at what amounts to 100% free cash flow. Perhaps as stock of a lens begins to run low development of a replacement is brought forward. We just don't know.

The D-FA Macros are instructive - they were updated when stock ran out. Was there an inventory of old FA 28-70 and 80-200 zoom lenses and FA primes beyond the FA50/1.4 and the three Limiteds (all of which a few posters here say have not been produced in over two years) perhaps the urgency to release a FF would be different.

Again, we just don't know.
08-03-2014, 09:43 AM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The sensor can't be to expensive then. Well if all of them make a camera with that sensor, the market for it will grow and all wil make a loss in the proces. There is a market for a mirrorless with that sensor.With a registrationdistance shorter then K-mount the camera could be the size of the K-01!!!!!!!!!!!
Bingo - i think thats the interesting possibilities that mirrorless construction brings to the design table. Sure, the initial mirrorless cams were as expensive as the DSLRs, but as the technology becomes more commonplace, prices are dropping. For example, the Sony A6000 is much lower priced than the Nex6, its predecessor.

Companies like Fuji, Pentax, Panasonic and Samsung may find it much easier and quicker to design a mirrorless FF than a DSLR format. Although a DSLR retains some advantages, a mirrorless will certainly be able to compete on IQ within its functional limitations - i.e. battery life, EVF, etc.
08-03-2014, 10:04 AM   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Bingo - i think thats the interesting possibilities that mirrorless construction brings to the design table. Sure, the initial mirrorless cams were as expensive as the DSLRs, but as the technology becomes more commonplace, prices are dropping. For example, the Sony A6000 is much lower priced than the Nex6, its predecessor.

Companies like Fuji, Pentax, Panasonic and Samsung may find it much easier and quicker to design a mirrorless FF than a DSLR format. Although a DSLR retains some advantages, a mirrorless will certainly be able to compete on IQ within its functional limitations - i.e. battery life, EVF, etc.
The problem is that when that camera with the sensor from 645Z would cost more then the Nikon Df then I still doubt if it wil gain any marketshare or acceptance in any userdemographic. You need lenses to use it.

Look at this list: Above 2000 euro camera's don't fly of the shelf:
http://www.cameranu.nl/nl/c2/digitale-cameras?sort=price-desc&show=50

You need a little lens system. Fine to have an adapter to connect with something else, but for real people need it to work. You need a few primes like for portrait (short lens 55mm/f2.8, longer 90mm/f2.8 en tele like 150mm,f2.8). Some "kit"zoom that is of quality like 35-70mm/f4 and you are off. So who will invest so much in a system that maybe isn't around in two years.

08-03-2014, 10:14 AM   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Bingo - i think thats the interesting possibilities that mirrorless construction brings to the design table. Sure, the initial mirrorless cams were as expensive as the DSLRs, but as the technology becomes more commonplace, prices are dropping. For example, the Sony A6000 is much lower priced than the Nex6, its predecessor.

Companies like Fuji, Pentax, Panasonic and Samsung may find it much easier and quicker to design a mirrorless FF than a DSLR format. Although a DSLR retains some advantages, a mirrorless will certainly be able to compete on IQ within its functional limitations - i.e. battery life, EVF, etc.
It isn't necessarily easier and quicker the first time - especially if manufacturing process engineering isn't part of your design culture and corporate culture. Elegance and simplicity are said to be part of Sony's culture - what is the Ricoh / Pentax engineering, design and manufacturing culture?

See this Roger Cicala article from January on tearing down the Sony A7r. To get full benefit from eliminating the complex mirrorbox assembly a MILC needs a ground-up simple design.
"This is rather amazing. The completely disassembled Sony A7R consists of about a dozen major pieces, held together with 29 screws of just three different sizes. A typical DSLR has around 120 screws of 11 different sizes. You might not care less about that, but do you know what I thought about? How much easier it will be to fix this camera when it breaks. How much simpler it must be to perform all the calibration that must be done during assembly. And how much simpler it must be to assemble the A7R in the first place. In other words, how much cheaper it must be to make this camera, than to make a DSLR."
Maybe the reason Pentax (and Ricoh) haven't done a competitive MILC, or proper video or a competitive FF is beacuse . . . . . .

they can't.

I don't know what it is - but it has to be something more than just fear of failure.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-03-2014 at 10:21 AM.
08-03-2014, 12:14 PM   #370
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
Why is there some requirement on a Pentax FF to have a huge and complete lineup of brand new lenses, something that does not seem to hold back any other manufacturer?
I did not say huge or complete, take a look at the Nikon catalog. I count 18 FX zooms alone, not even looking at the primes, that's huge and complete.

For Ricoh, the primes are already there just need new coatings and updates. But no way they can release a viable camera system with only primes. And there are NO FF zooms available unless they start making old FA designs again. Which would be a huge mistake, and one they will not make. I have a good number of old Pentax F and FA zooms. Some of them are quite nice, very few hold up to modern lenses even on the k-3, no way they are good enough for a modern FF sensor and all are screwdrive.

I am confident we will see a FF system from RIcoh, just as soon as they can also release a set of lenses that will make it a viable purchase to people beyond the group hanging on to old F and FA glass hoping for a miracle. It might be at this year's Photokina, it might be at the next Photokina. At this point there is no reason to rush to market, any opportunity they had to rush into the market and save their FF user base vanished years ago. Those who needed FF already left. There are lots of reasons to wait until the full system can be ready.

Who knows, maybe people in the factory are stuffing them in the boxes as we type.
08-03-2014, 12:35 PM   #371
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Coming from canon it is funny to hear some of you talk about this stuff. Having I can spent time in the canon world I have heard the quote a few times of "Pentax: a beautiful body without proper lenses".

Until pentax fixes that perception they won't gain much market share. Most professional crop shooters are shooting sports and wildlife. And while the k3 is arguably the best crop body, pentax lack lenses such as 85 1.8, 200 f2, 100-400ish range pro zoom to make it a complete package for sports or wildlife.

The same can be said for full frame. Portrait and landscape photographers flock to full frame. But pentax doesn't have a MODERN well rounded full frame lineup. Heck they are still rounding out the MF lens lineup. They can't launch a ff camera with introducing some lenses first.

Don't get me wrong, I love my k5. But I switched because I could get the most on my budget. Not for the best overall system. Pentax needs some identity.
08-03-2014, 01:10 PM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
It might be at this year's Photokina, it might be at the next Photokina. At this point there is no reason to rush to market, any opportunity they had to rush into the market and save their FF user base vanished years ago. Those who needed FF already left.
For me it is weird that on Ricoh roadmap we do not have any prime lenses - only zooms. Secondly, in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
08-03-2014, 01:18 PM   #373
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QuoteOriginally posted by x4rd Quote
(...) in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
...or later
08-03-2014, 01:29 PM   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by x4rd Quote
Secondly, in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
If you mean 'complete' as in Canon or Nikon complete, then yes at least that long, or maybe never. A lot of the lenses in the Canikon catalogs probably would never be added if they had to start from scratch. And Ricoh is starting from scratch. So, today a complete catalog might be 4 or 5 zooms and an assortment of primes. Depends on whether they do a dual line with f/2.8 glass and then either f/4 or variable aperture glass or just stick with one range which might be variable f/2.8-4 which will really make people here unhappy.

---------- Post added 08-03-14 at 01:37 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Venom3300 Quote
Coming from canon it is funny to hear some of you talk about this stuff. Having I can spent time in the canon world I have heard the quote a few times of "Pentax: a beautiful body without proper lenses".

Until pentax fixes that perception they won't gain much market share. Most professional crop shooters are shooting sports and wildlife. And while the k3 is arguably the best crop body, pentax lack lenses such as 85 1.8, 200 f2, 100-400ish range pro zoom to make it a complete package for sports or wildlife.

The same can be said for full frame. Portrait and landscape photographers flock to full frame. But pentax doesn't have a MODERN well rounded full frame lineup. Heck they are still rounding out the MF lens lineup. They can't launch a ff camera with introducing some lenses first.

Don't get me wrong, I love my k5. But I switched because I could get the most on my budget. Not for the best overall system. Pentax needs some identity.
Lots of good points here. We should keep in mind though that Canon and Nikon did not magically deliver all those lenses at once. They built the catalog lens by lens over a long time, upgrading and improving when the technology allowed. Pentax has not released a new FF lens in a long time and has not updated any except the DFA macros. Ricoh has a lot of work to do to deliver a system with a modern lens line.
08-03-2014, 01:37 PM   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by x4rd Quote
For me it is weird that on Ricoh roadmap we do not have any prime lenses - only zooms. Secondly, in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
It will never ever become that complete anymore, since the market for photography is changing that fast that it won't be profatable to run a new line of Full Frame camera with more then 15 lenses.
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