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08-03-2014, 10:04 AM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Bingo - i think thats the interesting possibilities that mirrorless construction brings to the design table. Sure, the initial mirrorless cams were as expensive as the DSLRs, but as the technology becomes more commonplace, prices are dropping. For example, the Sony A6000 is much lower priced than the Nex6, its predecessor.

Companies like Fuji, Pentax, Panasonic and Samsung may find it much easier and quicker to design a mirrorless FF than a DSLR format. Although a DSLR retains some advantages, a mirrorless will certainly be able to compete on IQ within its functional limitations - i.e. battery life, EVF, etc.
The problem is that when that camera with the sensor from 645Z would cost more then the Nikon Df then I still doubt if it wil gain any marketshare or acceptance in any userdemographic. You need lenses to use it.

Look at this list: Above 2000 euro camera's don't fly of the shelf:
http://www.cameranu.nl/nl/c2/digitale-cameras?sort=price-desc&show=50

You need a little lens system. Fine to have an adapter to connect with something else, but for real people need it to work. You need a few primes like for portrait (short lens 55mm/f2.8, longer 90mm/f2.8 en tele like 150mm,f2.8). Some "kit"zoom that is of quality like 35-70mm/f4 and you are off. So who will invest so much in a system that maybe isn't around in two years.

08-03-2014, 10:14 AM   #377
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Bingo - i think thats the interesting possibilities that mirrorless construction brings to the design table. Sure, the initial mirrorless cams were as expensive as the DSLRs, but as the technology becomes more commonplace, prices are dropping. For example, the Sony A6000 is much lower priced than the Nex6, its predecessor.

Companies like Fuji, Pentax, Panasonic and Samsung may find it much easier and quicker to design a mirrorless FF than a DSLR format. Although a DSLR retains some advantages, a mirrorless will certainly be able to compete on IQ within its functional limitations - i.e. battery life, EVF, etc.
It isn't necessarily easier and quicker the first time - especially if manufacturing process engineering isn't part of your design culture and corporate culture. Elegance and simplicity are said to be part of Sony's culture - what is the Ricoh / Pentax engineering, design and manufacturing culture?

See this Roger Cicala article from January on tearing down the Sony A7r. To get full benefit from eliminating the complex mirrorbox assembly a MILC needs a ground-up simple design.
"This is rather amazing. The completely disassembled Sony A7R consists of about a dozen major pieces, held together with 29 screws of just three different sizes. A typical DSLR has around 120 screws of 11 different sizes. You might not care less about that, but do you know what I thought about? How much easier it will be to fix this camera when it breaks. How much simpler it must be to perform all the calibration that must be done during assembly. And how much simpler it must be to assemble the A7R in the first place. In other words, how much cheaper it must be to make this camera, than to make a DSLR."
Maybe the reason Pentax (and Ricoh) haven't done a competitive MILC, or proper video or a competitive FF is beacuse . . . . . .

they can't.

I don't know what it is - but it has to be something more than just fear of failure.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-03-2014 at 10:21 AM.
08-03-2014, 12:14 PM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
Why is there some requirement on a Pentax FF to have a huge and complete lineup of brand new lenses, something that does not seem to hold back any other manufacturer?
I did not say huge or complete, take a look at the Nikon catalog. I count 18 FX zooms alone, not even looking at the primes, that's huge and complete.

For Ricoh, the primes are already there just need new coatings and updates. But no way they can release a viable camera system with only primes. And there are NO FF zooms available unless they start making old FA designs again. Which would be a huge mistake, and one they will not make. I have a good number of old Pentax F and FA zooms. Some of them are quite nice, very few hold up to modern lenses even on the k-3, no way they are good enough for a modern FF sensor and all are screwdrive.

I am confident we will see a FF system from RIcoh, just as soon as they can also release a set of lenses that will make it a viable purchase to people beyond the group hanging on to old F and FA glass hoping for a miracle. It might be at this year's Photokina, it might be at the next Photokina. At this point there is no reason to rush to market, any opportunity they had to rush into the market and save their FF user base vanished years ago. Those who needed FF already left. There are lots of reasons to wait until the full system can be ready.

Who knows, maybe people in the factory are stuffing them in the boxes as we type.
08-03-2014, 12:35 PM   #379
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Coming from canon it is funny to hear some of you talk about this stuff. Having I can spent time in the canon world I have heard the quote a few times of "Pentax: a beautiful body without proper lenses".

Until pentax fixes that perception they won't gain much market share. Most professional crop shooters are shooting sports and wildlife. And while the k3 is arguably the best crop body, pentax lack lenses such as 85 1.8, 200 f2, 100-400ish range pro zoom to make it a complete package for sports or wildlife.

The same can be said for full frame. Portrait and landscape photographers flock to full frame. But pentax doesn't have a MODERN well rounded full frame lineup. Heck they are still rounding out the MF lens lineup. They can't launch a ff camera with introducing some lenses first.

Don't get me wrong, I love my k5. But I switched because I could get the most on my budget. Not for the best overall system. Pentax needs some identity.

08-03-2014, 01:10 PM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
It might be at this year's Photokina, it might be at the next Photokina. At this point there is no reason to rush to market, any opportunity they had to rush into the market and save their FF user base vanished years ago. Those who needed FF already left.
For me it is weird that on Ricoh roadmap we do not have any prime lenses - only zooms. Secondly, in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
08-03-2014, 01:18 PM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by x4rd Quote
(...) in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
...or later
08-03-2014, 01:29 PM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by x4rd Quote
Secondly, in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
If you mean 'complete' as in Canon or Nikon complete, then yes at least that long, or maybe never. A lot of the lenses in the Canikon catalogs probably would never be added if they had to start from scratch. And Ricoh is starting from scratch. So, today a complete catalog might be 4 or 5 zooms and an assortment of primes. Depends on whether they do a dual line with f/2.8 glass and then either f/4 or variable aperture glass or just stick with one range which might be variable f/2.8-4 which will really make people here unhappy.

---------- Post added 08-03-14 at 01:37 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Venom3300 Quote
Coming from canon it is funny to hear some of you talk about this stuff. Having I can spent time in the canon world I have heard the quote a few times of "Pentax: a beautiful body without proper lenses".

Until pentax fixes that perception they won't gain much market share. Most professional crop shooters are shooting sports and wildlife. And while the k3 is arguably the best crop body, pentax lack lenses such as 85 1.8, 200 f2, 100-400ish range pro zoom to make it a complete package for sports or wildlife.

The same can be said for full frame. Portrait and landscape photographers flock to full frame. But pentax doesn't have a MODERN well rounded full frame lineup. Heck they are still rounding out the MF lens lineup. They can't launch a ff camera with introducing some lenses first.

Don't get me wrong, I love my k5. But I switched because I could get the most on my budget. Not for the best overall system. Pentax needs some identity.
Lots of good points here. We should keep in mind though that Canon and Nikon did not magically deliver all those lenses at once. They built the catalog lens by lens over a long time, upgrading and improving when the technology allowed. Pentax has not released a new FF lens in a long time and has not updated any except the DFA macros. Ricoh has a lot of work to do to deliver a system with a modern lens line.
08-03-2014, 01:37 PM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by x4rd Quote
For me it is weird that on Ricoh roadmap we do not have any prime lenses - only zooms. Secondly, in my opinion we will wait 4 - 5 years to have a complete FF system from now on.
It will never ever become that complete anymore, since the market for photography is changing that fast that it won't be profatable to run a new line of Full Frame camera with more then 15 lenses.

08-03-2014, 02:10 PM   #384
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Depends on whether they do a dual line with f/2.8 glass and then either f/4 or variable aperture glass or just stick with one range which might be variable f/2.8-4 which will really make people here unhappy.
People here would be unhappy if they released a 12-1200mm F/1

Only 100X? And why isn't it F/.95
08-03-2014, 02:38 PM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
People here would be unhappy if they released a 12-1200mm F/1

Only 100X? And why isn't it F/.95
1200mm F1. Does it come with a truck to carry it?
08-03-2014, 03:28 PM   #386
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Well, one thing the rumors seem to agree on is that the next K-mount lens to be announced, probably at Photokina, is a 1xx-4xx lens, and supposedly FF compatible.

Having spent some time this weekend shooting the Seafair Boeing Air Show (and water races) with my Tamron 70-200 and often wanting a bit more reach, this is probably my most wanted K-mount lens right now. A 100-400mm f/4-5.6 with IQ at least on par with the Canon 100-400 and WR/DC (and reasonably priced) would be perfect IMO, and help fill in the void in high quality zooms longer than the 60-250 (and serve the same role for FF, should it come out, as the 60-250 does for APS-C).

Last edited by Cannikin; 08-03-2014 at 03:35 PM.
08-03-2014, 04:34 PM   #387
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
the three Limiteds (all of which a few posters here say have not been produced in over two years)
This keep being repeated, but the FA Limiteds are not discontinued according to Ricoh. They are still in all the catalogues, still on the roadmap and seem to be as widely available as any other Pentax lens. And then last week I saw an FA77 in the new Ricoh style box. I also saw the D-FA50 macro and DA*300 in the new boxes.

Staff at retail stores are not reliable sources for this kind of thing. For a start, when would Ricoh brief them about this kind of thing? And secondly they have a clear motivation to make up stuff up to sell what they do have in stock - "Sorry. That ones discontinued. But how about this Sigma 85mm?"
08-03-2014, 05:31 PM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
This keep being repeated, but the FA Limiteds are not discontinued according to Ricoh.
I think you misunderstand. The comment being repeated was that the FA Limited are not currently being manufactured but are being supplied from old stock. AFAIK no one has said they are discontinued. The reasoning being that manufacturing is done in batches and then the line is changed to make something else. The comment was that the FA Limited line had not seen a production run in two years. That may or may not be significant since we do not know how many were made or how fast they sell.

And the comment is now dated somewhat so it is even possible Ricoh has run another batch. Personally I doubt that as if they did it would make sense to update the coatings as they did with the DA Limiteds. So either they are using up old stock and when it is gone there will be no more, or they are using up old stock and when it is mostly gone will release new updated Limiteds. Hopefully with new coatings, aperture ring and quick shift.
08-03-2014, 08:50 PM   #389
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I suppose in fairness monochrome didn't use the word discontinued. I don't want to misrepresent what he said. The thing is that all lenses could be described as out of production until the manufacturer needs a new batch, so this kind of comment could panic people into buying a lens or holding off, but it's just business as usual.

Having seen the newly packaged FA77 makes me think it'll be around in its current form for a while at least. I can't imagine that they have a guy taking old FA77s out of their Pentax packaging and repacking them in Ricoh boxes.
08-03-2014, 09:13 PM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
This keep being repeated, but the FA Limiteds are not discontinued according to Ricoh.
Why is it then that a German dealer has not been able to order FA Limiteds for years now?

We end users naturally have to speculate a lot because we don't know anything for sure. However when a German dealer tells me he cannot order FA Limiteds anymore because Pentax has ceased production and also people with insider knowledge like asahi man confirm that FA Limited production has ceased then that tells me there is probably more to the story than just a temporary production halt.

One can believe that there is a difference between "ceasing production" and "never producing these lenses again", but if we were really talking about a temporary halt only, why wouldn't it be possible for Pentax to provide the German dealer with FA Limiteds so that he can sell them?

A new FA 77/1.8 in a new Ricoh box sounds odd with respect to the above, but perhaps this means that
  1. they still have a lot of inventory that they would like to sell, and
  2. there is an FF model to be released soon that comes also in bundles involving the FA Limiteds.

Last edited by Class A; 08-03-2014 at 09:18 PM.
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