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08-10-2014, 03:26 AM   #586
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
We all want something and mostly something different.
  • I think it would be great if the K-3 body was used for the Full Frame camera. Some changes, but not bigger (except for the viewfinder).
  • Using the same grip as the K-3 uses, D-BG5. (loyalty to your customers and not milking them)
  • Same for the battery, D-Li90.
  • It would be great to use the 16 megapixel sensor from D4s/Df. It has plenty enough pixels.
  • We don't get it all new, since developement is to expensive and we can't have the 645Z being the lame old tech camera.
  • So the same 25 AF point module, PRIME III engine (with just 16 mp it would be snappy fast), metering and all that. (probably even the FluCard )
  • Looking at the capability's of the sensor, keeping the 8,3 fps as in the K-3 is possible. Not yet the big sportscamera (D4s/1Dx), but a very capable one.
  • Team up with Sigma and get some lenses. The 120-300mm/f2.8 is crusial for this to be any kind of action camera.
  • Some new lenses, 24-75mm/f2.8 and 70-200mm/f2.8 (or so). A collapsable kitzzomlens (make it small like those fancy mirrorless).

And on the price. Well it has to be cheaper then Df. That is out of the league when you want to cater a large groupe of current K-mount users.
Indeed, "something different". Here's mine:
+ I'd like a jump in resolution (and resolved detail) from APS-C, so 16MP is a big no-no
+ same for the K-3's AF module. I don't mind 25 AF points, but they will have to properly cover the larger frame.
+ team up with Sigma - a company who is reverse engineering OEM protocols - is unrealistic.

08-10-2014, 03:43 AM   #587
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
And I think that 36MP sensors are no more expensive than 24MP sensors. It is just Nikon playing the market segmentation. Pentax FF could be 36MP, same cost as D610 or little higher and comes with even better AF module. They could make an high end FF for little more than low end FF... That would be something.
You need to remember that everyone is aiming for a moving target. The D610 is yesterday's target. Any new Pentax camera would be likely to find itself up against not only the new D810 but the successors to the D610 (already rumours out there of exactly that), the Canon 6D and the Canon 5D Mark III. Sooner or later, one presumes Sony will refine the A7 line too. Today's "better AF module" is likely already behind where these cameras will be. So the specs thought "good enough" in mid-2014 are unlikely to be good enough by mid-2015. The FF market has been around for long enough for all the obvious gaps to be filled in, I suspect. That means a K-mount FF DSLR will face a straight fight and anything less than a superb camera is quite likely to go down in flames. No short cuts here.

Sigma are pirates. Sometimes us customers find them useful, even very good indeed. But if you are a company, they are still pirates. It's very hard to imagine any of the old school imaging companies - Pentax, Nikon, Canon and so forth - having anything to do with them.

One thing I'm not sure about is what could roughly be called the retailing bottleneck. There are now so many different cameras out there and they are being replaced so swiftly that for some companies just getting a camera into a store, any store, must be a bit of a nightmare. That could be another issue for an prospective new entrant into FF: the limited space at retail for FF cameras is already stuffed with examples from the usual suspects. Why should a retailer take yet another one? Same applies to any camera of course, but at least retailers seem to carry a broader range of the models further down the scale, because they are by far the more popular.

Last edited by mecrox; 08-10-2014 at 04:01 AM.
08-10-2014, 05:21 AM   #588
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Why should a retailer take yet another one? Same applies to any camera of course, but at least retailers seem to carry a broader range of the models further down the scale, because they are by far the more popular.
Apparently the Ricoh Imaging story in the USA is Pentax has a higher profit margin than (whatever it replaces). At some point (maybe already done), if they want significant B&M distribution in the USA, Ricoh must rationalize the Dealer Agreement and Dealer Credit Arrangement, Rep coverage and support, Customer Service and Support, onshore product inventory, repair turn-around and parts inventory - the entire Distribution model - so that the entire package is competitive with other brands of similar volume. A distribution model that seems optimized for high volume web Dealers probably won't attract many local Dealers.

If Pentax has enough sales spread across 3 mounts and 4 major lines (Q, APSc, FF and 645) there just might be a case for larger B&M Dealers to sign up again.

It is a chicken / egg problem, though. Just doesn't seem likely any time soon.
08-10-2014, 05:27 AM - 1 Like   #589
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
A distribution model that seems optimized for high volume web Dealers probably won't attract many local Dealers.
What local dealers? The local camera shop has the same fate as the local book store.

08-10-2014, 05:31 AM   #590
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)

By the way, during Hoya it was Pentax Imaging Systems. I think you're a bit hasty to declare their non-existence
This is your writing, not mine. Pentax was a company when listed (obviously) and still was after being taken over by Hoya. Still is for medical devices. But Ricoh bought photography-related Pentax assets (not the shares in a subsidiary) from Hoya, including the right to use the Pentax brand name for photographic equipment, and contributed these assets into their photography subsidiary which was renamed Pentax Ricoh Imaging , then renamed again, this time Ricoh Imaging. Since this acquisition, Pentax is a brand name shared between Hoya (medical devices) and Ricoh (photographic equipment).

Fortunately, as Daikokuya explained to us, this is not so bad as "Ricoh Imaging guys would keep Pentax mind for so long, resisting or at least hesitating to call themselves as a member of Ricoh. (...) A CEO may come from Ricoh, but a daily operation would be very much like the way Pentax has done so far."
08-10-2014, 05:32 AM   #591
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
What local dealers? The local camera shop has the same fate as the local book store.
Well, maybe St. Louis is special. Tired, sleepy old 19th C. / early 20th C. industrial city (kinda like western PA) with only 2.2MM people in the entire MSMA.

Yet we support a thriving 9 B&M store Dealer (6 here, 3 within 120 miles) that does carry Pentax [EDIT: - maybe not any more - no K-3's in online inventory and only 1 K5IIs, so it looks like they're running off old stock]. And 3 other professional-oriented store fronts. We still have radio and TV ads for camera stores here. I can stop at 3 real camera stores that still develop prints within 15 minutes of my house or job.

FWIW, the Walgreen's within walking distance of my house still has an in-store Kodak print counter for film and digital prints. I have no idea how they work, but all the machines behind the counter have Fuji on them.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-10-2014 at 06:02 AM.
08-10-2014, 05:43 AM   #592
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Apparently the Ricoh Imaging story in the USA is Pentax has a higher profit margin than (whatever it replaces). At some point (maybe already done), if they want significant B&M distribution in the USA, Ricoh must rationalize the Dealer Agreement and Dealer Credit Arrangement, Rep coverage and support, Customer Service and Support, onshore product inventory, repair turn-around and parts inventory - the entire Distribution model - so that the entire package is competitive with other brands of similar volume. A distribution model that seems optimized for high volume web Dealers probably won't attract many local Dealers.

If Pentax has enough sales spread across 3 mounts and 4 major lines (Q, APSc, FF and 645) there just might be a case for larger B&M Dealers to sign up again.

It is a chicken / egg problem, though. Just doesn't seem likely any time soon.
So how did Fuji and Olympus manage to do it, if they do where you are (they are all over the stores here, much more than their actual sales would warrant, one would think)? Off the back of their former compacts businesses?

I wonder how concentrated the retailing is for cameras. Lots of small sales with lots of small stores or a few big chains which take the lion's share and a long tail of little guys? Over here there really aren't many little guys left, just the odd one or two. Most folks don't live anywhere near a camera shop now, here anyway. Chances are they no longer have any idea where one is. Their first ports of call (if not the web) would be the big CE stores and chains or department stores.
08-10-2014, 05:43 AM   #593
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Also, do not forget TI Asahi, which owns the Pentax name for Total Stations and other surveying equipment, and Seiko, which owns the mark for eyeglasses. This is all the continuing legacy of the original breakup and sale of assets of the Asahi Optical Co. Different entities acquired the rights to the name and the technologies (i.e. SMC, etc.) in different industrial sectors.

Pretty good for a brand that was originally basically stolen from Zeiss Ikon as the name for a single camera model. After WWII, German IP became fair game, legally, and Asahi pounced on the name, which originally referred to Pentaprism Contax.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
This is your writing, not mine. Pentax was a company when listed (obviously) and still was after being taken over by Hoya. Still is for medical devices. But Ricoh bought photography-related Pentax assets (not the shares in a subsidiary) from Hoya, including the right to use the Pentax brand name for photographic equipment, and contributed these assets into their photography subsidiary which was renamed Pentax Ricoh Imaging , then renamed again, this time Ricoh Imaging. Since this acquisition, Pentax is a brand name shared between Hoya (medical devices) and Ricoh (photographic equipment).

Fortunately, as Daikokuya explained to us, this is not so bad as "Ricoh Imaging guys would keep Pentax mind for so long, resisting or at least hesitating to call themselves as a member of Ricoh. (...) A CEO may come from Ricoh, but a daily operation would be very much like the way Pentax has done so far."


08-10-2014, 05:47 AM   #594
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Indeed, "something different". Here's mine:
+ I'd like a jump in resolution (and resolved detail) from APS-C, so 16MP is a big no-no
+ same for the K-3's AF module. I don't mind 25 AF points, but they will have to properly cover the larger frame.
+ team up with Sigma - a company who is reverse engineering OEM protocols - is unrealistic.
Finding a good compromise to cater all future customers is a hard trick I think.
08-10-2014, 05:51 AM   #595
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
So how did Fuji and Olympus manage to do it, if they do where you are (they are all over the stores here, much more than their actual sales would warrant, one would think)? Off the back of their former compacts businesses?
In the USA Olympus (I presume) had a formal distribution model from the film era. My parents bought an OM-1 for my brother at one of these camera stores. It is possible Oly didn't destroy their model they way Hoya did to Pentax. Oly has multiple bodies for sale in this chain's online store.

Fuji is non-existent in this chain - just 2 bodies, 3 lenses, 2 super compacts and some batteries and film.
08-10-2014, 05:53 AM   #596
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
This is your writing, not mine. Pentax was a company when listed (obviously) and still was after being taken over by Hoya. Still is for medical devices. But Ricoh bought photography-related Pentax assets (not the shares in a subsidiary) from Hoya, including the right to use the Pentax brand name for photographic equipment, and contributed these assets into their photography subsidiary which was renamed Pentax Ricoh Imaging , then renamed again, this time Ricoh Imaging. Since this acquisition, Pentax is a brand name shared between Hoya (medical devices) and Ricoh (photographic equipment).
Pentax Corporation was (obviously) a company, Asahi Optical renamed. After the hostile takeover, the company was eventually dissolved and the part which we care about, Pentax Imaging Systems, became a division of Hoya Corporation. In October 2011, this Pentax Imaging Systems was split out from Hoya, regaining it's "company" status, then sold to Ricoh. It then was renamed to Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company, absorbed Ricoh's camera division and renamed again to Ricoh Imaging Company.
We can track a "Pentax" entity moving through all of this.

What you're saying about Ricoh buying assets and not shares in a subsidiary is incorrect:
"The Acquisition will be conducted by HOYA transferring the PENTAX Imaging Systems Business to a newly established subsidiary (hereinafter referred to as “the New Company”) through an absorption-type split and business transfer. Ricoh will then acquire 100% of the outstanding shares of the New Company.
The business is expected to be managed as a wholly owned subsidiary of Ricoh after the transfer of management rights."
http://www.ricoh.com/release/2011/pdf/0701.pdf

It is correct to say that Pentax made the K-7 and 645D (except that the 645D is sharing K-5's hardware). It was Pentax Imaging Systems who did it.
Now, we should say that Pentax products are made by Ricoh Imaging. But, same people making the same kind of products - it's still Pentax for us.
08-10-2014, 05:53 AM   #597
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Well, maybe St. Louis is special. Tired, sleepy old 19th C. / early 20th C. industrial city (kinda like western PA) with only 2.2MM people in the entire MSMA.

Yet we support a thriving 9 B&M store Dealer (6 here, 3 within 120 miles) that does carry Pentax. And 3 other professional-oriented store fronts. We still have radio and TV ads for camera stores here. I can stop at 3 real camera stores that still develop prints within 15 minutes of my house or job.

FWIW, the Walgreen's within walking distance of my house still has an in-store Kodak print counter for film and digital prints. I have no idea how they work, but all the machines behind the counter have Fuji on them.
Here are the 2 stores in the Syracuse area.

MQ keeps bakers hours. I think he's afraid he might sell something...

MQ Camera Center.

Check out the 'current' specials. A Nikon S3 that has been on the shelf for 14 years... He did finally sell the Mamiya that had been there for years.

The other is Johnson Camera. Last place in the area that does in-house processing.

We Always Show You How! 315-446-0290

Ra-Lin is a discount department store. But they do have a large camera section (though it is only a shadow of what it used to be). The Canikon shooters in the photo meetups I go to all at least showroom their cameras at Ra-Lin. Some will even buy there.

Ra-Lin - We sell Appliance and Electronics, camera equipment, sharp television sets, sony cameras, nikon cameras, stereos, Sonos wireless speakers, refrigerators, jewelry, audio equipment, home theater, receivers, speakers, collectibles in Syracuse,

None of these stores will ever carry Pentax. Not even Ra-Lin. The head salesman there told me he tried to sell Pentax but nobody would buy. (I wouldn't buy from him anyway. He didn't even know the difference between parfocal and varifocal.)

At least 2 camera stores have closed in the last 5 years. There are no camera stores left in any of the smaller towns within a 50 mile radius.

For example...

Danella Photographic is closing in a flash, owner excited where industry is headed : News : CNYcentral.com

Syracuse area photo store North Plaza Camera Shop fading from the picture | syracuse.com
08-10-2014, 06:39 AM   #598
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Market penetration... for Pentax FF DSLR

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well how many are that? My guess is that 10 % is even optimistic. All the users of before K-5 don't go that route on that percentage. I don't see the K-50/K-30/K-r/K-01 crowd going that way. So if Pentax had a 4 % marketshare over the past 3 years that are just over one million camera's and thus maybe 100.000 FF camera's. Unless they can attrack new users to the K-mount.
In support of Ron's numbers, Well here's where we are in FF capable current technology Pentax lenses.... No long teles of wide apertures.... Forget the Birders, Wildlifers, Sports Pros, surveillance types, Photojournalists. No 12-14 FA F2.8... Forget the landscapers, realtors, admen, scenery designers, and architects (Canon has their glass in shifts). So you end up with wedding shooters and portrait folks? 55mm F1.4 is ok for APSc, need 85mm F1.4 for FF.... OK forget them. So there goes the major market for a Pentax FF in Pros. I would hedge Ron's number and take it to 2-3% MAX. Add in the affluent enthusiast that has been squirreling FA*s, subtract those that don't do landscapes or too many wides and are happy with 12-24 F4 or the primes...

Any firm that puts R&D in that for a Now launch when Canon's line is not profitable, Nikon is BLEEDING, Sony is back-filling A7s and Alphas with cash they don't have, 4/3 is in decline...... ought to go broke from violating basic rules of business ... a Business Darwin Award Winner...

If Pentax marketers were dolt's, I could see it in 14/15. I suspect it will be longer. FF at less than 50MP is a loser optically (simple math). An addition of HQ long teles, telezooms, a longer macro, and a DA* zoom to 10 at F2.8 would cement Pentax as the leader in APSC. Kill the MF market with new 400/600/800mm... FF is backward, too heavy, too expensive, a resolution loser, etc. IMHO
08-10-2014, 07:07 AM   #599
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Sigma are pirates.
Is that so?

Where is you proof that they are using Pentax IP illegally?

Are you sure they are not paying license fees or have some agreement?

If there is illegal action, where is Pentax's lawsuit?
08-10-2014, 07:08 AM   #600
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I think someone mentioned it before and I support it. The idea was something like producing just enough according to committed buyers; e.g. Kickstarter.

Since they are so darn afraid of fighting the big boys, why don't they explore into the kickstarter option?
It's a win-win situation! Perhaps project 300 units and launch it there. With orders fulfilled, they can go ahead and produce that quantity without risking much losses.. Oh well...

As for lenses, you guys forgot what Pentax is all about:

1) Kawaii - a 150-500 zoom or whatever would have to start from f/8 to f/16. LoL!
2) Field photography - they don't give two hoots about long lenses as not many shoots landscape with a long lens.
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