Photokina!

MarkJerling · 07-31-2014, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by banep

As far as I know there won't be K-1 for some time because I'm just testing K-2.
Nothing special in compare to previous models, but it is full frame.
Oh, and a viewfinder is gorgeous.
Sorry, I can't pubished pictures and technical details before Photokina because of legal obligations.

Are you joking, or is this an insider scoop???

**jpzk** · 07-31-2014, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by MarkJerling

Are you joking, or is this an insider scoop???

Seems like a joke.

Posts total here on PF: 8
Location: Slovania.

Tell us more, banep !

JP

Class A · 07-31-2014, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by IchabodCrane

That all makes sense if the MF market is one worth pursuing by Ricoh if not outright capturing.

+1

Also, if you convert the 4:3 format of the 645Z into 3:2 (the one we know from regular DSLRs) then 45MP of the 51MP remain.

Compared to the 36MP of a D810, that's just a resolution advantage of 12.3% (linearly). There's more to MF than just resolution, but with a 0.8 crop factor compared to FF (D810, A7r, ...), the crop-MF 645Z is not a huge step up in quality but a huge step up in price.

The 645Z may be a bargain in the MF world, but compared to FF its market can't be that big.

JPT · 07-31-2014, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Class A

+1

Also, if you convert the 4:3 format of the 645Z into 3:2 (the one we know from regular DSLRs) then 45MP of the 51MP remain.

OK. But what if you prefer 4:3 aspect and crop the D810? Surely the squarish aspect of MF is part of the appeal, not a bug.

ElJamoquio · 07-31-2014, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by JPT

OK. But what if you prefer 4:3 aspect and crop the D810? Surely the squarish aspect of MF is part of the appeal, not a bug.

Cropped to 3:2: 1.222 Crop Factor, 45MP vs 36MP
Neutral: 1.296 Crop Factor, 51MP vs 36MP
Cropped to 4:3: 1.375, 51MP vs 32MP

I used to like 4:3 more than I do now. Something to do with 16:9 TV's everywhere? Dunno.

Class A · 07-31-2014, 09:47 PM

Originally posted by JPT

Surely the squarish aspect of MF is part of the appeal, not a bug.

For me it isn't.

The 4:3 aspect ratio of the 645 format is best known through P&S compacts and that's not the only reason why it looks worse to me.

A real square format is a different matter, but very hard to shoot with well.

Uluru · 08-01-2014, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by Class A

+1

Also, if you convert the 4:3 format of the 645Z into 3:2 (the one we know from regular DSLRs) then 45MP of the 51MP remain.

Compared to the 36MP of a D810, that's just a resolution advantage of 12.3% (linearly). There's more to MF than just resolution, but with a 0.8 crop factor compared to FF (D810, A7r, ...), the crop-MF 645Z is not a huge step up in quality but a huge step up in price.

The 645Z may be a bargain in the MF world, but compared to FF its market can't be that big.

Which exactly means that Pentax cannot rely on MF alone.

The price gap between the K-3 and 645Z is still too wide to swallow, and the linear resolution between the FF of other makers and the 645Z is negligible.

Which points, again, to an ancient saga: the Pentax systems lineup does not make sense for its users. The lack of FF does not mean that 645 is the answer by Pentax to the FF question, because it is not. It is only a prolongation of the same agony. Because Pentax cannot build any practical answer around the 645 lenses and its mount. Only impractical answers.

In addition, the FA and DFA lenses are wasted without an FF. Pentax needs the FF to fortify their own K-mount first, as anything that can be constructed around the 645 mount to "compete" with top FF boys is HUGE, and is not practical. And costs as twice as much at least. In a direct comparison, Nikon's D810 will win over the 645Z any time in people's minds, because it is more accessible, more practical, and much cheaper. Disadvantages of the D810 are negligible when one puts it all down.

So I find it almost unbelievable that we are almost into 2015, and Pentax does not have an FF. Because many who want a 645, and can't get one, will opt for an FF of other brands. The DSLR range in K-mount in incomplete without an FF, it does not make any sense. And Pentax loses its momentum every single Photokina.

Last edited by Uluru; 08-01-2014 at 12:48 AM.

RonHendriks1966 · 08-01-2014, 12:40 AM

Originally posted by IchabodCrane

A great question for a Photokina interview would be percentage of camera sales that come from outside of Japan. Let's see what they say.

Well for a part this is answerd.

Ricoh Imaging Europe is #2 within the groupe and has a share of 30 % of sales. So with America's, and the rest of Asia I guess Japan would be around 40-50 % or so.

mecrox · 08-01-2014, 12:47 AM

The CIPA figures for June are out. They continue the pattern of this year. The industry as a whole is sharply down and DSLR is down a bit but MILC is up, again this month by quite a lot with Europe doing particularly well so far this year. Shipments of MILCs to the Americas are 400 per cent up on the same month a year ago. I wonder what caused that sudden jump? Maybe that one must be an anomaly? If this trend continues then I guess a question might be whether a full-fat MILC line of APS-C scale or so is a better long-term prospect than a DSLR FF line looking over 3-5 years. There can't be many folks left who are looking to Pentax for a FF DSLR whether they already have the brand or not. Things appear to be changing out there.

Poit · 08-01-2014, 12:50 AM

Originally posted by MarkJerling

Are you joking, or is this an insider scoop???

It does sound quite believable / logical. The name 'K-2' would line up well with the new 'Q-2' nomenclature, with largely the same tech as previous (i.e a full-frame K-3). A conservative and obvious venture into FF.

BUT, the lead-up to a major camera show is also silly season, and outlandish comments / claims about "I'm testing the new FF" are not unusual. Unless Banep can verify / validate his comments, I suggest a healthy dose of salt

HawaiianOnline · 08-01-2014, 01:07 AM

I hope to see a "year of the lenses". Just what those lenses will be is currently a mystery...

Uluru · 08-01-2014, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Poit

It does sound quite believable / logical. The name 'K-2' would line up well with the new 'Q-2' nomenclature, ..

Apparently, it will be Q-S1.
Whatever that means.

cxdoo · 08-01-2014, 01:12 AM

I believe MILC will overtake DSLR in the future. I just don't think the technology is here yet; unless the market decides it's all good and we continue down the road from bright big SLR viewfinder all the way to laggy, low contrast EVF as a standard.

Uluru · 08-01-2014, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

The CIPA figures for June are out. They continue the pattern of this year. The industry as a whole is sharply down and DSLR is down a bit but MILC is up, again this month by quite a lot with Europe doing particularly well so far this year. Shipments of MILCs to the Americas are 400 per cent up on the same month a year ago. I wonder what caused that sudden jump?..

Because cheap MILCs are replacing P&S cameras now. Cheap MILC are the new replacement for the P&S market, trying to revive it, and MILCs can actually compete favourably with smartphones. So it's a win-win game for the camera maker and that is why Pentax is pushing Q with new models each year. That is the whole strategy of the camera makers, of those who make MILCs alone and of those who make DSLRs and MILCs too — introduce gazillion of MILCs because they know P&S days are gone, and game must be changed.
It's a new era.

cxdoo · 08-01-2014, 01:31 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Uluru

Because cheap MILCs are replacing P&S cameras now. Cheap MILC are the new replacement for the P&S market, trying to revive it, and MILCs can actually compete favourably with smartphones. So it's a win-win game for the camera maker and that is why Pentax is pushing Q with new models each year. That is the whole strategy of the camera makers, of those who make MILCs alone and of those who make DSLRs and MILCs too — introduce gazillion of MILCs because they know P&S days are gone, and game must be changed.
It's a new era.

I don't have the impression Q competes with phones, or P&S cameras. Both are more convenient to pocket & carry. I see Q more as a DSLR-lite; something that behaves sort-of like DSLR in a much smaller package. A toy for people not too lazy to change lenses and fiddle with settings.

08-01-2014, 12:47 AM	#294
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	The CIPA figures for June are out. They continue the pattern of this year. The industry as a whole is sharply down and DSLR is down a bit but MILC is up, again this month by quite a lot with Europe doing particularly well so far this year. Shipments of MILCs to the Americas are 400 per cent up on the same month a year ago. I wonder what caused that sudden jump? Maybe that one must be an anomaly? If this trend continues then I guess a question might be whether a full-fat MILC line of APS-C scale or so is a better long-term prospect than a DSLR FF line looking over 3-5 years. There can't be many folks left who are looking to Pentax for a FF DSLR whether they already have the brand or not. Things appear to be changing out there. Last edited by mecrox; 08-01-2014 at 01:08 AM.

08-01-2014, 01:18 AM	#299
Uluru Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,535	Originally posted by mecrox The CIPA figures for June are out. They continue the pattern of this year. The industry as a whole is sharply down and DSLR is down a bit but MILC is up, again this month by quite a lot with Europe doing particularly well so far this year. Shipments of MILCs to the Americas are 400 per cent up on the same month a year ago. I wonder what caused that sudden jump?.. Because cheap MILCs are replacing P&S cameras now. Cheap MILC are the new replacement for the P&S market, trying to revive it, and MILCs can actually compete favourably with smartphones. So it's a win-win game for the camera maker and that is why Pentax is pushing Q with new models each year. That is the whole strategy of the camera makers, of those who make MILCs alone and of those who make DSLRs and MILCs too — introduce gazillion of MILCs because they know P&S days are gone, and game must be changed. It's a new era. Last edited by Uluru; 08-01-2014 at 01:25 AM.

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07-31-2014, 07:14 PM	#286
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,404	Originally posted by banep As far as I know there won't be K-1 for some time because I'm just testing K-2. Nothing special in compare to previous models, but it is full frame. Oh, and a viewfinder is gorgeous. Sorry, I can't pubished pictures and technical details before Photokina because of legal obligations. Are you joking, or is this an insider scoop???

07-31-2014, 07:44 PM	#287
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251	Originally posted by MarkJerling Are you joking, or is this an insider scoop??? Seems like a joke. Posts total here on PF: 8 Location: Slovania. Tell us more, banep ! JP

07-31-2014, 08:13 PM	#288
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by IchabodCrane That all makes sense if the MF market is one worth pursuing by Ricoh if not outright capturing. +1 Also, if you convert the 4:3 format of the 645Z into 3:2 (the one we know from regular DSLRs) then 45MP of the 51MP remain. Compared to the 36MP of a D810, that's just a resolution advantage of 12.3% (linearly). There's more to MF than just resolution, but with a 0.8 crop factor compared to FF (D810, A7r, ...), the crop-MF 645Z is not a huge step up in quality but a huge step up in price. The 645Z may be a bargain in the MF world, but compared to FF its market can't be that big.

07-31-2014, 08:43 PM	#289
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,821	Originally posted by Class A +1 Also, if you convert the 4:3 format of the 645Z into 3:2 (the one we know from regular DSLRs) then 45MP of the 51MP remain. OK. But what if you prefer 4:3 aspect and crop the D810? Surely the squarish aspect of MF is part of the appeal, not a bug.

07-31-2014, 09:37 PM	#290
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by JPT OK. But what if you prefer 4:3 aspect and crop the D810? Surely the squarish aspect of MF is part of the appeal, not a bug. Cropped to 3:2: 1.222 Crop Factor, 45MP vs 36MP Neutral: 1.296 Crop Factor, 51MP vs 36MP Cropped to 4:3: 1.375, 51MP vs 32MP I used to like 4:3 more than I do now. Something to do with 16:9 TV's everywhere? Dunno.

07-31-2014, 09:47 PM	#291
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by JPT Surely the squarish aspect of MF is part of the appeal, not a bug. For me it isn't. The 4:3 aspect ratio of the 645 format is best known through P&S compacts and that's not the only reason why it looks worse to me. A real square format is a different matter, but very hard to shoot with well.

08-01-2014, 12:35 AM	#292
Uluru Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,535	Originally posted by Class A +1 Also, if you convert the 4:3 format of the 645Z into 3:2 (the one we know from regular DSLRs) then 45MP of the 51MP remain. Compared to the 36MP of a D810, that's just a resolution advantage of 12.3% (linearly). There's more to MF than just resolution, but with a 0.8 crop factor compared to FF (D810, A7r, ...), the crop-MF 645Z is not a huge step up in quality but a huge step up in price. The 645Z may be a bargain in the MF world, but compared to FF its market can't be that big. Which exactly means that Pentax cannot rely on MF alone. The price gap between the K-3 and 645Z is still too wide to swallow, and the linear resolution between the FF of other makers and the 645Z is negligible. Which points, again, to an ancient saga: the Pentax systems lineup does not make sense for its users. The lack of FF does not mean that 645 is the answer by Pentax to the FF question, because it is not. It is only a prolongation of the same agony. Because Pentax cannot build any practical answer around the 645 lenses and its mount. Only impractical answers. In addition, the FA and DFA lenses are wasted without an FF. Pentax needs the FF to fortify their own K-mount first, as anything that can be constructed around the 645 mount to "compete" with top FF boys is HUGE, and is not practical. And costs as twice as much at least. In a direct comparison, Nikon's D810 will win over the 645Z any time in people's minds, because it is more accessible, more practical, and much cheaper. Disadvantages of the D810 are negligible when one puts it all down. So I find it almost unbelievable that we are almost into 2015, and Pentax does not have an FF. Because many who want a 645, and can't get one, will opt for an FF of other brands. The DSLR range in K-mount in incomplete without an FF, it does not make any sense. And Pentax loses its momentum every single Photokina. Last edited by Uluru; 08-01-2014 at 12:48 AM.

08-01-2014, 12:40 AM	#293
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by IchabodCrane A great question for a Photokina interview would be percentage of camera sales that come from outside of Japan. Let's see what they say. Well for a part this is answerd. Ricoh Imaging Europe is #2 within the groupe and has a share of 30 % of sales. So with America's, and the rest of Asia I guess Japan would be around 40-50 % or so.

08-01-2014, 12:50 AM	#295
Poit Banned Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Canberra, Australia Posts: 423	Originally posted by MarkJerling Are you joking, or is this an insider scoop??? It does sound quite believable / logical. The name 'K-2' would line up well with the new 'Q-2' nomenclature, with largely the same tech as previous (i.e a full-frame K-3). A conservative and obvious venture into FF. BUT, the lead-up to a major camera show is also silly season, and outlandish comments / claims about "I'm testing the new FF" are not unusual. Unless Banep can verify / validate his comments, I suggest a healthy dose of salt

08-01-2014, 01:07 AM	#296
HawaiianOnline Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hawaii Posts: 613	I hope to see a "year of the lenses". Just what those lenses will be is currently a mystery...

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08-01-2014, 01:10 AM	#297
Uluru Banned Join Date: May 2010 Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,535	Originally posted by Poit It does sound quite believable / logical. The name 'K-2' would line up well with the new 'Q-2' nomenclature, .. Apparently, it will be Q-S1. Whatever that means.

08-01-2014, 01:12 AM	#298
cxdoo Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Limassol, Cyprus Posts: 1,150	I believe MILC will overtake DSLR in the future. I just don't think the technology is here yet; unless the market decides it's all good and we continue down the road from bright big SLR viewfinder all the way to laggy, low contrast EVF as a standard.

08-01-2014, 01:31 AM - 1 Like	#300
cxdoo Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Limassol, Cyprus Posts: 1,150	Originally posted by Uluru Because cheap MILCs are replacing P&S cameras now. Cheap MILC are the new replacement for the P&S market, trying to revive it, and MILCs can actually compete favourably with smartphones. So it's a win-win game for the camera maker and that is why Pentax is pushing Q with new models each year. That is the whole strategy of the camera makers, of those who make MILCs alone and of those who make DSLRs and MILCs too — introduce gazillion of MILCs because they know P&S days are gone, and game must be changed. It's a new era. I don't have the impression Q competes with phones, or P&S cameras. Both are more convenient to pocket & carry. I see Q more as a DSLR-lite; something that behaves sort-of like DSLR in a much smaller package. A toy for people not too lazy to change lenses and fiddle with settings.