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09-26-2014, 09:34 PM   #421
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote

You seem to be implying that if a product is good, it will become popular. Really? History have given us plenty of outstanding products that never gained serious traction (Commodore Amiga comes to mind) and poor products that were popular (Chevy Chevette).
Is it possible to have a great product that fails? Sure. There are exceptions to every rule. The K-01 had a great sensor and was capable of great image quality, but the rest of its abilities are rather pedestrian. The Commodore Amiga was actually a better performer than the competition in many ways. The K-01 is not a great performer. It lacked what many people consider important features like an EVF.

The K-01 would make a good case study of the value of K-mount. The Fuji X-Pro 1 and the K-01 were brought to market at the same time. The Fuji XP1 was launched at almost 2x the price with only 3 lens. The K-01 was launched with 40 K-mount lenses in production and yet people still bought the more expensive XP1. The guy who got me interested in K-mount now shoots with a Fuji X-T1 and Sony A99/A900. K-mount doesn't have nearly as much value as many people on this board want to believe.

09-27-2014, 01:39 AM   #422
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Is it possible to have a great product that fails? Sure. There are exceptions to every rule. The K-01 had a great sensor and was capable of great image quality, but the rest of its abilities are rather pedestrian. The Commodore Amiga was actually a better performer than the competition in many ways. The K-01 is not a great performer. It lacked what many people consider important features like an EVF.

The K-01 would make a good case study of the value of K-mount. The Fuji X-Pro 1 and the K-01 were brought to market at the same time. The Fuji XP1 was launched at almost 2x the price with only 3 lens. The K-01 was launched with 40 K-mount lenses in production and yet people still bought the more expensive XP1. The guy who got me interested in K-mount now shoots with a Fuji X-T1 and Sony A99/A900. K-mount doesn't have nearly as much value as many people on this board want to believe.
And so the battles goes on...
Hey, Winder, it's dead already ...
09-27-2014, 04:56 AM   #423
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For what its worth, when the K-S1 was announced I checked it out, and I really liked it. I like to see DSLR's getting smaller, and the nice lines of the K-S1, oh shucks, I even like the LED's. I like the new mode dial on the back.

Buy, I do not like the loss of the second control wheel, and the rubber eye piece looks a bit oversized for the body now. The pop up flash looks a bit too big also in comparison to the body.

But on a whole I really like it, and I am only judging by the photos.

So many people were talking it down, asking "Who is Pentax targeting this camera at ? " - they didn't get it, and like others said, were hoping that it fails before it launches.

The camera store will be getting one on display next week, so I'll get my hands all over it then. So then I'll be able to better talk about it.

As for the K-01, it was just not very attractive. The design firm that did the K-S1 did a really great job - no doubt about it.
09-27-2014, 06:04 AM   #424
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
The design firm that did the K-S1 did a really great job - no doubt about it.
I hate the design of the KS-1 too plasticky the mode dial is not practical. too much bling bling. Led's are unnecessary. The design of the mirrorhousing clashes with the rest of the camera, the grip sucks for heavy lenses. I would have fired anybody who gave me such a design. I like the design of the K-01. It looks nice, it has character it's been thought through. But conservative buyers found it easy to ridicule. As a product it was not going to cut it for Pentax, because of the inherent bulk of a 45mm flange distance. But as a camera it's pretty nice. The K-s1 is for girls. It's flashy bling and they should make a pink one with zircon on it. I don't want to see it, i don't want to buy it and I hope it fails because otherwise Pentax may change into a crap brand.

09-27-2014, 06:45 AM   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I hate the design of the KS-1 too plasticky the mode dial is not practical. too much bling bling. Led's are unnecessary. The design of the mirrorhousing clashes with the rest of the camera, the grip sucks for heavy lenses. I would have fired anybody who gave me such a design. I like the design of the K-01. It looks nice, it has character it's been thought through. But conservative buyers found it easy to ridicule. As a product it was not going to cut it for Pentax, because of the inherent bulk of a 45mm flange distance. But as a camera it's pretty nice. The K-s1 is for girls. It's flashy bling and they should make a pink one with zircon on it. I don't want to see it, i don't want to buy it and I hope it fails because otherwise Pentax may change into a crap brand.
K-S1 design was released now as a preference-shaping strategy for the 'different' part of the coming Pentax K-Lx.
09-27-2014, 10:25 AM - 1 Like   #426
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I buy the idea that it's not a camera for enthusiasts and its a different product line than the K-3. I dont even mind the looks. It's different, but in a good way.
But the pentax executives themselves said that they are targeting the "mobile" generation. It is a sin that this camera didn't have wi-fi built in and a flippy screen. Its not even WR so they cant use that as an excuse. Other than looks, how is it catering to that consumer? Certainly not the price.
Just because an executive says something doesn't make it true. They are politicians with much larger bank accounts.
09-27-2014, 11:12 AM   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
didn't have wi-fi built in and a flippy screen
Why are they so important on a camera? A camera isn't a phone. I doubt they are so benighted they just don't know - maybe they intentionally left them off to make a distinction.*


* I got my wife has an Eye-Fi Mobi for her Q and set up the links to her phone and MacBookPro. Nevertheless she uses her phone for Instagram and pulls the card to transfer Q photos. Doesn't matter how many times I show her the camera will connect to either, she says she doesn't want to do it that way.
09-27-2014, 11:29 AM   #428
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Why are they so important on a camera? A camera isn't a phone. I doubt they are so benighted they just don't know - maybe they intentionally left them off to make a distinction.*


* I got my wife has an Eye-Fi Mobi for her Q and set up the links to her phone and MacBookPro. Nevertheless she uses her phone for Instagram and pulls the card to transfer Q photos. Doesn't matter how many times I show her the camera will connect to either, she says she doesn't want to do it that way.
Wi-Fi i dont feel is all that important personally. ..but why then state it is for the mobile consumer? In what way? I feel like it is like video. It hurts more not having it than it helps having it. And it is a check in the box.
As for the flippy screen, I personally will never buy another camera without at least a tilt swivel screen. It comes in handy way more often than i thought it would.

If leaving those items off (along with WR) wouldve meant a 4-500 camera, then sure, go for it.

09-27-2014, 11:34 AM   #429
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I hate the design of the KS-1 too plasticky the mode dial is not practical. too much bling bling. Led's are unnecessary. The design of the mirrorhousing clashes with the rest of the camera, the grip sucks for heavy lenses. I would have fired anybody who gave me such a design. I like the design of the K-01. It looks nice, it has character it's been thought through. But conservative buyers found it easy to ridicule. As a product it was not going to cut it for Pentax, because of the inherent bulk of a 45mm flange distance. But as a camera it's pretty nice. The K-s1 is for girls. It's flashy bling and they should make a pink one with zircon on it. I don't want to see it, i don't want to buy it and I hope it fails because otherwise Pentax may change into a crap brand.
Funny, I feel you're somewhat conservative in your K-S1evaluation
09-27-2014, 12:03 PM   #430
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I think that Pentax would do best if they encouraged more baseless wild speculation on what they should do next
09-27-2014, 12:55 PM   #431
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Why are they so important on a camera? A camera isn't a phone. I doubt they are so benighted they just don't know - maybe they intentionally left them off to make a distinction.*


* I got my wife has an Eye-Fi Mobi for her Q and set up the links to her phone and MacBookPro. Nevertheless she uses her phone for Instagram and pulls the card to transfer Q photos. Doesn't matter how many times I show her the camera will connect to either, she says she doesn't want to do it that way.
That's like marketing a car as a family car that only has 2 seats and no boot.

The only point where the K-S1 meets the demands of the audience it is supposed for is design. Everything else is just completely not what the target demographic is interested in.

And why is WiFi important on a camera? Well, if there is a proper API, a photographer could automatically transmit previews of the photos to his editor (say he is shooting events or news for a newspaper), or the photos are directly transmitted to a computer nearby, say in a studio shoot where several people are involved.

Of course some people will want to post their photos on Instagram, facebook or whatever.

For me it'd be tethered shooting. Being able to place the camera in a corner I can't reach, and being able to see the exact picture I'm going to get, and to control the camera.

Just because you wouldn't use the features it doesn't mean others wouldn't.

@cali92rs:
I'd like to quote from an interview with Sony:
QuoteQuote:
No. From what I’ve heard, in recent years a lot of professional photographers have needed to start creating video as well as stills - doing two jobs. One camera which can do both - like the A7S - is potentially better.


Last week we attended the IBC conference in Amsterdam and already a lot of journalists were using the A7S for video.
Photokina 2014: Sony interview - 'we still need to create more lenses': Digital Photography Review


Basically if you want to cater to a professional audience (which the K-S1 doesn't want to, admittedly), do video, and do it really well. A camera that is only good at stills will be excluded from the professional market. Which leads to less exposure (look, all the pro's are shooting Sony, Panasonic, Nikon and Samsung! I'll get one of those cameras then). Canon is a bit greedy and wants to charge 10k and more for a camera that is decent at video, funny thing is, they can. And the cameras that are actually good at stills and video tend to sell really well.

Btw., I'm right now listening to an interview with Samsung, and they say that the 28 MP BSI/ISOCELL APS-C sensor has about the same pixel size as a regular 20 MP APS-C sensor would. That sounds promising, though 20 MP is a bit high already IMHO. But this hints at better high ISO performance than the K-3, despite having a higher resolution. Also, the sensor is made with a 65 nm process, while structures on other sensors are bigger. This should lead to less heat, which again means better low light performance and faster readout speeds (better for video).

Last edited by kadajawi; 09-27-2014 at 01:01 PM.
09-27-2014, 01:36 PM   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Btw., I'm right now listening to an interview with Samsung, and they say that the 28 MP BSI/ISOCELL APS-C sensor has about the same pixel size as a regular 20 MP APS-C sensor would. That sounds promising, though 20 MP is a bit high already IMHO. But this hints at better high ISO performance than the K-3, despite having a higher resolution. Also, the sensor is made with a 65 nm process, while structures on other sensors are bigger. This should lead to less heat, which again means better low light performance and faster readout speeds (better for video).
Samsung has invested in ASML:

http://www.asml.com/asml/show.do?ctx=5869&rid=46974

That is very nearby, about 20 minute drive by car for me. They are leading in wafertechnology. Over the past years there was an investment agreement and also Samsung joint in with EURO 779 million in R&D and shares. I think that new sensor technic is coming from the latest generation wafertechnic. Samsung has a huge plant with all ASML wafermakers.

Making a 28 megapixelsensor and claiming 20 megapixeldensity performance would mean a 40 % better performance noisewise. Let's see how DxO looks at that.

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 09-27-2014 at 01:44 PM.
09-27-2014, 01:57 PM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
And why is WiFi important on a camera? Well, if there is a proper API, a photographer could automatically transmit previews of the photos to his editor (say he is shooting events or news for a newspaper), or the photos are directly transmitted to a computer nearby, say in a studio shoot where several people are involved.
Probably not a using a K-S1 in those applications. Pentax seems to have decided for the time being the O-FC1 is their solution for remote operation and the new 645Z tethering software for professional.

They strongly guard their API and don't seem to want to publish an SDK, no matter what people think. I assume they want to retain control. They talked extensively to Apple and Google, but weren't prepared to submit to their will.

Correct I think about the initial K-S1 price, but that will drop fairly rapidly to a clearing level.

I use Wi-Fi exclusively on Q7 (Eye-Fi card), which is fine for the single selected file but it is actually quite slow for moving a day's worth of files to laptop. I have transferred to a device for posting literally only three times.

If a hinged screen was on the camera I would use it from time to time (shooting over head or low level) but the rest of the time the frame would annoy me unless it was perfectly flush and didn't make the body thicker.
09-27-2014, 02:09 PM   #434
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Samsung has invested in ASML:

http://www.asml.com/asml/show.do?ctx=5869&rid=46974

That is very nearby, about 20 minute drive by car for me. They are leading in wafertechnology. Over the past years there was an investment agreement and also Samsung joint in with EURO 779 million in R&D and shares. I think that new sensor technic is coming from the latest generation wafertechnic. Samsung has a huge plant with all ASML wafermakers.

Making a 28 megapixelsensor and claiming 20 megapixeldensity performance would mean a 40 % better performance noisewise. Let's see how DxO looks at that.
The chief reason i would want a FF camera is the advertised 1 stop of light advantage. But if you can get there with a BSI sensor, formerly limited to 1" or smaller sensors, than that would seem to breathe new life into aps size cameras, would it not?
09-27-2014, 02:16 PM   #435
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
The chief reason i would want a FF camera is the advertised 1 stop of light advantage. But if you can get there with a BSI sensor, formerly limited to 1" or smaller sensors, than that would seem to breathe new life into aps size cameras, would it not?
Unless someone brings that technic to FF or even the next 645-camera.
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