[philbaum]

Its just business after all- this relationship between different companies. The reason why Pentax might go to Samsung is:

A. they've worked with them before
B. Sounds like they might have the hot new sensor

The reason Samsung might sell pentax a sensor:

A. Selling sensors is income that might help pay future development work on the camera
B. If Pentax buys one, that might help give the sensor some credibility

Its a long shot i know - but a possibility. And they may have been pointed this direction a year ago.

[cali92rs]

Its just business after all- this relationship between different companies. The reason why Pentax might go to Samsung is:

A. they've worked with them before
B. Sounds like they might have the hot new sensor

The reason Samsung might sell pentax a sensor:

A. Selling sensors is income that might help pay future development work on the camera
B. If Pentax buys one, that might help give the sensor some credibility

Its a long shot i know - but a possibility. And they may have been pointed this direction a year ago.

I don't see a reason not to use a Samsung sensor if there is some sort of business advantage.
Their NX mount has been competitive from an IQ standpoint, even before this new backlit sensor.

[monochrome]

I don't see a reason not to use a Samsung sensor if there is some sort of business advantage.
Their NX mount has been competitive from an IQ standpoint, even before this new backlit sensor.

Wouldn't it just rock everybody's socks if what makes a Pentax FF different is the sensor?

But asahi man says this round and the next round of Pentax cameras are all Sony sensors.

[ElJamoquio]

A samsung sensor would be great if it was better than the Sony's.

Sensors haven't really been improved since 2010, though, so I'm not holding my breath.

[Aristophanes]

Wouldn't it just rock everybody's socks if what makes a Pentax FF different is the sensor?

But asahi man says this round and the next round of Pentax cameras are all Sony sensors.

Sony Semi still has a lead over the other manufacturers. It looks like Canon has substantially invested to catch up. Nikon's put some $$$ in to others but so far Sony still has an edge and certainly has the volume to work the wholesale pricing.

[mecrox]

I don't see a reason not to use a Samsung sensor if there is some sort of business advantage.
Their NX mount has been competitive from an IQ standpoint, even before this new backlit sensor.

The real advantageous lies in the Samsung electronics and software which come with the sensor, at a guess. And with lenses designed to work with such a system. On its own the sensor might be nice but no more. Hard to see Samsung selling the whole package but who knows.

[ElJamoquio]

Sony Semi still has a lead over the other manufacturers. It looks like Canon has substantially invested to catch up. Nikon's put some $$$ in to others but so far Sony still has an edge and certainly has the volume to work the wholesale pricing.

I think Toshiba is actually about as good as Sony, but I haven't seen a Canon sensor that was as good as Sony. What camera are you referring to?

[kadajawi]

A samsung sensor would be great if it was better than the Sony's.

Sensors haven't really been improved since 2010, though, so I'm not holding my breath.

There's been a couple of test photos lately... same condition, more or less. Sony A77 Mk II, Samsung NX-1 and Nikon D750. In all but low light the Samsung seems to have won, and in low light the Samsung, while clearly beaten by the Nikon, looks better than the Sony to me. That's with JPEGs though, I'd love to see the raw files...


The advantages of the NX-1 sensor are less space between the pixels (thinner/finer structures, by a factor of at least 2), BSI technology (the photosites are covering most, if not all of the area designated for a pixel... all the electronics etc. are on the other side, whereas in normal sensor they'd be taking away precious space), faster readout speed, lower power consumption/heat development (thinner/finer structures) --> less noise, improved micro lenses catching even more light, and IIRC less space between the micro lenses and the photosites, so that even light rays coming in at a sharp angle will be captured. New lenses are designed for sensors that can't do that, but old ones should benefit.


Now the fast readout speed may not be that useful without the processor to make use of it, but the ability to gather light more efficiently for example would still be quite valuable.


Sony does have BSI tech, but only in much smaller sensors.


There are more companies that produce sensors, like CMOSIS, but they are really expensive (CMOSIS has an APS-C sensor for 1300 Euro...).

[Mistral75]

(...)

Sony does have BSI tech, but only in much smaller sensors.


There are more companies that produce sensors, like CMOSIS, but they are really expensive (CMOSIS has an APS-C sensor for 1300 Euro...).

A couple of precisions here:

1. Sony's biggest BSI sensor is 1" whilst APS-C is close to 2"
2. CMOSIS is a fabless company. They design sensors but don't produce/manufacture them. For instance the CMOSIS-designed sensor in Leica M is manufactured by STMicroelectronics

There are more companies that produce sensors,

This is a noncomplete list of sensor players from 2012:

• Altasense
• Aptina/Micron
• Banpil Photonics
• Cmosis
• Canon
• Dongbu Hitek
• E2V Technologies Plc
• Espros Photonics Corporation
• Fujifilm
• Given Imaging
• Hitachi Ltd.
• Imaging Dynamics Company, Ltd.
• Karl Storz Gmbh And Co. Kg
• Magnachip
• Matsushita
• Omnivision
• Panasonic
• Photonfocus
• Sensl
• Sionyx
• Smic
• Stmicroelectronics
• Samsung
• Sharp
• Sigma
• Siliconfile
• Sony
• Teledyne Dalsa
• Truesense Imaging, Inc.
• Tsmc
• Texas Instruments
• Toshiba

[kadajawi]

A couple of precisions here:

1. Sony's biggest BSI sensor is 1" whilst APS-C is close to 2"
2. CMOSIS is a fabless company. They design sensors but don't produce/manufacture them. For instance the CMOSIS-designed sensor in Leica M is manufactured by STMicroelectronics

The Leica M Max Sensor Explained | THEME

Seems like the tech in the Leica M is also in the Samsung NX-1, just developed further.

Thanks, that is quite a list.

Many times people also speculate upon the players in the foundry submarket. That also is an area where consumers often don't see the full situation:

Image Sensor Foundries:

• Austria Micro Systems (AMS)
• DALSA
• Dongbu Hitek
• ESPROS Photonics Corp. (EPC) - Swiss CCD and CMOS foundry and design house
• HH NEC (Hua Hong NEC)
• IBM
• LFoundry
• Nanya
• Powerchip
• SMIC
• TSMC
• Toppan Printing (Microlens and Color Filter)
• TowerJazz
• UMC
• Visera (Microlens, Color Filter, Testing)
• X-FAB
• XMC - Wuhan, Hubei province, China

Whoever is interested may have a look at:
Image Sensors World: Image Sensor Companies

This here also is an interesting read: http://www.semicontaiwan.org/en/sites/semicontaiwan.org/files/docs/4_semi_pr...ebdownload.pdf

[thibs]

Many times people also speculate upon the players in the foundry submarket. That also is an area where consumers often don't see the full situation:

Image Sensor Foundries:

• Austria Micro Systems (AMS)
• DALSA
• Dongbu Hitek
• ESPROS Photonics Corp. (EPC) - Swiss CCD and CMOS foundry and design house
• HH NEC (Hua Hong NEC)
• IBM
• LFoundry
• Nanya
• Powerchip
• SMIC
• TSMC
• Toppan Printing (Microlens and Color Filter)
• TowerJazz
• UMC
• Visera (Microlens, Color Filter, Testing)
• X-FAB
• XMC - Wuhan, Hubei province, China

Whoever is interested may have a look at:
Image Sensors World: Image Sensor Companies

This here also is an interesting read: http://www.semicontaiwan.org/en/sites/semicontaiwan.org/files/docs/4_semi_pr...ebdownload.pdf

Mmm I don't have time to check each individually but IMO this is list is a bit misleading in that it contains both designers of CMOS, fabs and companies doing both.
I don't agree about the fabs. They are contractors and nothing else. The have mostly no importance, if at all, to us.

Designers are interesting. Otherwise, I don't see the point, if only just so we know.

Does anybody cares about your AMD cpu/GPU, Nvidia GPU being made at UMC, TSMC, Samsung, IBM, whatever ?

[reh321]

I've just watched an interesting video on YouTube from the Camera Store where the two guys debated the future direction of Canon and Nikon. They bemoaned the fact that neither company had produced anything innovative in some time: since the 5D Mark II and the D800, in fact. It got me thinking about what Pentax needs to do. Does it remain in the APS-C DSLR arena, or is mirrorless the way to go?

Pentax is not an alternative to Nikon or Canon: it doesn't have a full-frame camera, nor the range of lenses or accessories needed to compete, let alone the fact that professional support is patchy, to say the least. While development of higher end Canikon APS-C sensor DSLRs seem to have stagnated, that could change at any time. And now Canon is rumoured to be entering the MF field, where they are bound to make an impression.

On the mirrorless front. the Q does not really compete with the Olympus, Fuji, Sony and Panasonic offerings. It is in this field that we are seeing most excitement generated, even though replacing the mirror and optical viewfinder with what is essentially a duplicate of the screen on the rear does not seem like a big deal to me. Having tried out some, I really dislike their EVFs: I have high-acuity vision, and I can see the pixels, even when there are over two million of them (or perhaps I'm imagining that). But hey, thousands would disagree with me. But a four/thirds sensor is too small for my taste, but I digress.

I have noticed with interest that the two mirror-less cameras which are said to be doing well in Asia, but haven't made much of an impression in the USA or Europe are the Pentax Q and the Canon EOS-M.
Question: What do these two have in common? Answer: Neither has an EVF.
I have tried various cameras at various big box stores. The EVF on the Canon SX-60 is gaudy - convinced me not to get that camera. The EVF on the Sony A6000 is almost like using an OVF - encouraged me to continue thinking about that camera despite its price. The Sony corporation has financial issues right now, so they may be limited in what they can put into R&D right now. If companies like Pentax want to really compete in this area, this is the time to do it.

[philbaum]

Just got back from a special presentation from an accomplished Canon bird shooter 5D II. In his sixties and just recently returned from a trip to Cuba for about 2 weeks. Bought an Olympus OMD E something or other for the trip, a m4/3 camera. Took his 5D II for backup but ended up not using his big camera at all. During this dialogue, a woman spoke up recounting how her shoulder still hurt a week after being back from an Italy trip where she carried her 18 lbs of APS cameras and lenses. Excellent presentation on Cuba, by the way.

The point being that there is a large contingent of existing dslr owners that are moving into the mirrorless camp for much of their shooting. Pentax should be preparing for a response to this trend.