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11-04-2014, 01:32 AM   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Just got back from a special presentation from an accomplished Canon bird shooter 5D II. In his sixties and just recently returned from a trip to Cuba for about 2 weeks. Bought an Olympus OMD E something or other for the trip, a m4/3 camera. Took his 5D II for backup but ended up not using his big camera at all. During this dialogue, a woman spoke up recounting how her shoulder still hurt a week after being back from an Italy trip where she carried her 18 lbs of APS cameras and lenses. Excellent presentation on Cuba, by the way.
I'm very surprised and interested by this. I have a couple of Olympus m43 cameras: the tracking autofocus is not very good, and there's not a great deal of cropping available from a 16 MP sensor. I wouldn't fancy trying birds in flight with mine, but I must admit that I'm not terribly good at BIF, even with a D810. Your chap is undoubtedly a magnitude better than me.

On the other hand, the m43s are small and light and I can see the attraction from that point of view (though the Olympus "professional" lenses are not particularly small or light). I am warming to them, but I'll never give up my Pentaxes. I thought I'd hate the EVFs, but they're not awful, though I much prefer an OVF. I agree, however, that Pentax ought to be seriously considering an APS-C or FF mirrorless design, if they're not already doing that.

11-04-2014, 01:45 AM   #542
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
I'm very surprised and interested by this. I have a couple of Olympus m43 cameras: the tracking autofocus is not very good, and there's not a great deal of cropping available from a 16 MP sensor. I wouldn't fancy trying birds in flight with mine, but I must admit that I'm not terribly good at BIF, even with a D810. Your chap is undoubtedly a magnitude better than me.

On the other hand, the m43s are small and light and I can see the attraction from that point of view (though the Olympus "professional" lenses are not particularly small or light). I am warming to them, but I'll never give up my Pentaxes. I thought I'd hate the EVFs, but they're not awful, though I much prefer an OVF. I agree, however, that Pentax ought to be seriously considering an APS-C or FF mirrorless design, if they're not already doing that.

Last month I had guests so while touring our small island I got to use their Olympus m43 here and there. I have to say I'm not impressed. It's too small for me to hold it comfortably, using LCD to frame is something I'll never get used to and image quality deteriorates pretty fast in low light. Something of a size of K100DS I had (or, hopefully, K-S1) is the minimum I feel comfortable with, anything smaller than that is maybe convenient to carry, but rather awkward to use.
11-04-2014, 01:47 AM - 1 Like   #543
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Just got back from a special presentation from an accomplished Canon bird shooter 5D II. In his sixties and just recently returned from a trip to Cuba for about 2 weeks. Bought an Olympus OMD E something or other for the trip, a m4/3 camera. Took his 5D II for backup but ended up not using his big camera at all. During this dialogue, a woman spoke up recounting how her shoulder still hurt a week after being back from an Italy trip where she carried her 18 lbs of APS cameras and lenses. Excellent presentation on Cuba, by the way.

The point being that there is a large contingent of existing dslr owners that are moving into the mirrorless camp for much of their shooting. Pentax should be preparing for a response to this trend.
+1

A DSLR, of whatever the kind, format or brand, with a lens or two is quickly a big package that only gets taken along when you actually plan to do some photography. But it's really easy to just put a MILC and an extra lens in a corner of your travel bag (or jacket pocket) and forget it's there for the rest of the day untill you bump into a photo oppertunity. And then it's nice to have as much quality in that tiny package as possible. That's why I really hoped Pentax would join in with the MILCs.
11-04-2014, 01:57 AM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Uhhhmmmmm - K-01 has been out of production for two years.

Let it rest in peace. Pentax apparently isn't going to do mirrorless. They don't believe in it. At least so said the CEO.
He did??? I remember there was a talk about mirrorless MF.

11-04-2014, 03:21 AM   #545
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There were IIRC several talks about mirrorless (in interviews with highly ranked Ricoh/Pentax officials).
- an interviewer pushing hard with his imaginary FF MILC
- hypothetical talks about how medium format would benefit from a MILC design (but no intention of actually making one)
- "we believe that APS-C is the utmost size for mirrorless", repeated once or twice
11-04-2014, 05:04 AM   #546
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
There were IIRC several talks about mirrorless (in interviews with highly ranked Ricoh/Pentax officials).
- an interviewer pushing hard with his imaginary FF MILC
- hypothetical talks about how medium format would benefit from a MILC design (but no intention of actually making one)
- "we believe that APS-C is the utmost size for mirrorless", repeated once or twice
The Ricoh GXR and GR are technically mirrorless.

The former had an EVF.

They've been there. Did that.
11-04-2014, 11:32 AM   #547
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
I'm very surprised and interested by this. I have a couple of Olympus m43 cameras: the tracking autofocus is not very good, and there's not a great deal of cropping available from a 16 MP sensor. I wouldn't fancy trying birds in flight with mine, but I must admit that I'm not terribly good at BIF, even with a D810. Your chap is undoubtedly a magnitude better than me.

On the other hand, the m43s are small and light and I can see the attraction from that point of view (though the Olympus "professional" lenses are not particularly small or light). I am warming to them, but I'll never give up my Pentaxes. I thought I'd hate the EVFs, but they're not awful, though I much prefer an OVF. I agree, however, that Pentax ought to be seriously considering an APS-C or FF mirrorless design, if they're not already doing that.
Sorry to unintentionally mislead you, he wasn't shooting birds on this trip, but people, buildings,cars, and the culture. Said he never liked to shoot people; actually did a good job of it. So he was able to get by with 2 lenses, a normal zoom and a medium tele zoom - sorry i can't be more precise. He said he could use the camera up to 800 or 1200 iso, but was able to shoot lower because of the excellent ibis of the Olympus, down to 1/5 or 1/10 sec. The camera bag was small. I had heard that some of the m43 had a silent shutter option and he confirmed it.

---------- Post added 11-04-14 at 10:58 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
+1

A DSLR, of whatever the kind, format or brand, with a lens or two is quickly a big package that only gets taken along when you actually plan to do some photography. But it's really easy to just put a MILC and an extra lens in a corner of your travel bag (or jacket pocket) and forget it's there for the rest of the day untill you bump into a photo oppertunity. And then it's nice to have as much quality in that tiny package as possible. That's why I really hoped Pentax would join in with the MILCs.
Thanks. I'm 67 and currently president of a photography club with gray and white haired folks of a similar or older age group. Altho still passionate about photography, they mostly are not above buying a mirrorless for their travel purposes - especially after the presentation last night. With the kind of quality that already is in mirrorless, practicality trumps pain and inconvenience.

I hope that Ricoh does what's best for Pentax, be it dslr or mirrorless. I still use my Pentax K3 for theatre and/or miserable weather work.

---------- Post added 11-04-14 at 11:06 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
There were IIRC several talks about mirrorless (in interviews with highly ranked Ricoh/Pentax officials).
- an interviewer pushing hard with his imaginary FF MILC
- hypothetical talks about how medium format would benefit from a MILC design (but no intention of actually making one)
- "we believe that APS-C is the utmost size for mirrorless", repeated once or twice
Ahhh....so the K3 successor is going to be mirrorless - you read it here folks.

Just kidding, but Pentax could do a good job of converting the K3 to a mirrorless and shedding a lot of ounces. The existing Pentax battery would have life in mirrorless that would far trump the worthless battery on the Nex style cameras.
11-04-2014, 12:15 PM   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote

Just kidding, but Pentax could do a good job of converting the K3 to a mirrorless and shedding a lot of ounces. The existing Pentax battery would have life in mirrorless that would far trump the worthless battery on the Nex style cameras.
It'd lose less than you think, Phil, because of IBIS and the K-mount registration distance.

Think K-30 converted to K-01.

11-04-2014, 02:25 PM   #549
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It'd lose less than you think, Phil, because of IBIS and the K-mount registration distance.

Think K-30 converted to K-01.
Yeah, but... but thats substantial :-)

K3: 800gm, 1.76lb, 28.22oz
K01: 561gm, 1.24lb, 19.79oz

561/800=.70

A 30% weight reduction, but they would need to add a EVF in the top left corner of the K03 box which would cost some weight.
But almost 30% is still excellent. One wouldn't want to make it as flimsy as Nex designs or A7/A7r. The nex have a tripod mount that doesn't stand abuse. One manufacturer makes a reinforcing metal ring for the A7/A7r and Nex cams to strengthen the lens mount. A friend with a A7s tells me the camera is better built. And like i said, the bigger Pentax battery would be a huge plus.
11-04-2014, 03:52 PM   #550
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It'd lose less than you think, Phil, because of IBIS and the K-mount registration distance.

Think K-30 converted to K-01.
Maybe, but the K-01 was made out of different material to the K-30 and had a larger, heavier battery. If they started with the K-S1 design/materials and stayed with the smaller battery, I bet they could get it close to 400g and produce it very cheaply. People would complain if it didn't have a built-in EVF, but there are plenty of K-mount cameras with viewfinders.

I still think Ricoh will make a move in the mirrorless space. My guess would be a new mount for a "GR" system camera. I guess it would be a premium offering, resembling the Leica T more than anything. Ricoh has numerous patents for lenses, as well as the existing APS-C lens designs for the GXR units, which were very good performers.

Last week I went to a big electronics store and found they had remodelled the camera area to devote considerably more space to mirrorless cameras than DSLRs. I can't imagine Ricoh would ignore this when such a big shift I'd happening in their home market. Remember that with the GXR gone, Ricoh is down one system and they have hardly been active with premium compacts either.
11-04-2014, 04:20 PM   #551
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Maybe, but the K-01 was made out of different material to the K-30 and had a larger, heavier battery. If they started with the K-S1 design/materials and stayed with the smaller battery, I bet they could get it close to 400g and produce it very cheaply. People would complain if it didn't have a built-in EVF, but there are plenty of K-mount cameras with viewfinders.

I still think Ricoh will make a move in the mirrorless space. My guess would be a new mount for a "GR" system camera. I guess it would be a premium offering, resembling the Leica T more than anything. Ricoh has numerous patents for lenses, as well as the existing APS-C lens designs for the GXR units, which were very good performers.

Last week I went to a big electronics store and found they had remodelled the camera area to devote considerably more space to mirrorless cameras than DSLRs. I can't imagine Ricoh would ignore this when such a big shift I'd happening in their home market. Remember that with the GXR gone, Ricoh is down one system and they have hardly been active with premium compacts either.
Yes, that's very interesting. I noticed when I last visited a big department store here which has a pretty good selection of cameras that mirrorless cameras were taking up a lot of space on the tables (upmarket ones, not just compact ones). And the CIPA stats are continuing to show mirrorless cameras producing more turnover from shipments than they did last year and the year before around the world whereas DSLRs are producing less (only a bit less in Japan but markedly so in some other territories). Won't the current GR be coming up to its second birthday before long? It's clearly very well thought of so Ricoh have an excellent base to build on.
11-04-2014, 04:22 PM   #552
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
They says at Photokina 2014 - only Q system will be Pentax-Ricoh mirrorless.
And for me this seems the right choice - just master small lenses and bodies and in the near future small sensors will have much better quality! For me shallow DOF gives joy only connected to good optical viewfinder, so it is DSLR area, not something for mirorrless (no real need for bigger sensors in mirrorless cameras).
11-04-2014, 05:09 PM   #553
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
It'd lose less than you think, Phil, because of IBIS and the K-mount registration distance.

Think K-30 converted to K-01.
Unless they drop the K-mount. If they do a mirrorless APS-C or FF camera, they'd be wise to drop the K-mount. Just make sure to make it fully compatible with the K-mount... i.e. you could mount a K-mount lens, with the disadvantage of the lens not working the way it was supposed to. Pentax will then have to provide a simple adapter that just increases the registration distance, transmitting everything else, including the screw drive AF pin.


This way buyers can make use of the short registration distance by mounting all sorts of lenses on the camera (think people coming from Canon or Nikon), Pentax can make use of the short registration distance with new lenses designed for this, and it all still works with our old lenses.


The camera should have a properly pronounced grip etc., which will make it look very funny without a lens, but which will make it very nicely balanced and nice to hold when with (that's a bit of an issue with the Sony NEX series... they were too thin... really sexy, but to use with anything but a small prime. Such a camera could have a lot of space for batteries, to make up for the lack of an optical viewfinder.


To be honest... if Pentax would rebadge a Samsung NX1 with a K mount and the Pentax SR system (with SR activated for video!) I'd be really happy. That's all I want. Isn't it ironic...
So basically an extremely fast BSI/ISOCELL enabled sensor (larger photosites + incoming light rays can come at a very sharp angle, the sensor can be fully read 240 times a second), connected to a smartphone based processor (but optimized for cameras), with the next gen video codec and a host of video functionality at enthusiasts and professionals, electronic viewfinder with a very, very low lag between what's happening and what you see, and plenty of small AF sensors placed spread out over the whole sensor.

Last edited by kadajawi; 11-04-2014 at 05:17 PM.
11-05-2014, 01:23 AM - 3 Likes   #554
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QuoteOriginally posted by Piotrek K Quote
And for me this seems the right choice - just master small lenses and bodies and in the near future small sensors will have much better quality! For me shallow DOF gives joy only connected to good optical viewfinder, so it is DSLR area, not something for mirorrless (no real need for bigger sensors in mirrorless cameras).

I said it before, and I'll repeat myself here. Saying Q is the Pentax mirrorless is ridiculous* and deliberately** wrong (not by you, but by Ricoh representatives). Mirrorless is expanding on high end and towards FF segment, where key feature is not compactness, but the opportunities provided by removal of mirror (silent shutter, flash sync, burst mode) while retaining high IQ.
Q on the other hand is in totally different segment; miniature ILC. It's key feature are interchangeable lenses; there are more compact cameras out there but fixed lens and there are other ILC there, but bigger. So proper thing to say about Q is that it's a toy for people who like to play with lenses and fiddle settings and what not. Yes, it's also a relatively competent camera, but far from the mirrorless cameras competition is spewing out. With that size of sensor, it will never be.
And that's ok. It's great for what it is.



* as noted below, I don't think the defining feature of Q is that it's mirrorless. Pointing out that it is is, well, ridiculous.
** when I say this, I mean that, IMHO, RP representatives understand the implication of the question asked (will they move to APS-C/FF mirrorless) and deliberately evade it.
11-05-2014, 01:39 AM - 1 Like   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by Piotrek K Quote
And for me this seems the right choice - just master small lenses and bodies and in the near future small sensors will have much better quality! For me shallow DOF gives joy only connected to good optical viewfinder, so it is DSLR area, not something for mirorrless (no real need for bigger sensors in mirrorless cameras).
If Q has 1" sensor, maybe...But Q is 1/2.3" and 1/1.7".
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