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08-11-2014, 08:32 AM   #46
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konraDarnok : In your case, disagreement means that in your opinion, I and a majority of customers) should not be allowed to continue using reflex OVF-equipped cameras.

stillshot2, that quote belongs to konraDarnok.

08-11-2014, 08:39 AM - 1 Like   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
konraDarnok : In your case, disagreement means that in your opinion, I and a majority of customers) should not be allowed to continue using reflex OVF-equipped cameras.

stillshot2, that quote belongs to konraDarnok.


You need to stop taking people's opinions about cameras personally. I have nothing to do with what you're "allowed" to do.
08-11-2014, 09:03 AM   #48
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Oh well, too many manufacturers with too many cameras chasing too few customers. If so, it looks as if some consolidation is unavoidable.

It's hard to see how the winning manufacturers will get out of this one without investing. If they don't invest, but instead cut back to the bone, the risk is that they will continue to make cameras which people do not want to buy and not enough cameras which they do want to buy. Imho, the key is likely to be software. The industry has generally spurned this so far, but they will have to bite that bullet sooner or later. By and large, it's hard to see people continuing to want to buy cameras which don't connect to anything and, beyond taking a picture, cannot do much else. That's all software. I suppose it's a change from saying you are a camera-maker to asking how things might look if you were in the intellectual property or content creation business.

Once an on-chip electronic shutter is perfected, if ever it is, there won't be much to stop other companies from moving into this sector if they want. A camera with any size of sensor and any capability will be reducible to a circuit board with no moving parts apart from the lens. Intel, Nvidia, AMD, whoever - they all have huge resources and expertise which the camera companies lack.

What are those states in the investment cycle - euphoria, anxiety, denial, capitulation, hope, relief, etc. Sounds like we are getting to the capitulation stage. I guess we'll be in it when some of the companies fess up and stop making unlikley forecasts they have to revise downwards a few months later.
08-11-2014, 09:09 AM - 1 Like   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
konraDarnok : In your case, disagreement means that in your opinion, I and a majority of customers) should not be allowed to continue using reflex OVF-equipped cameras.

stillshot2, that quote belongs to konraDarnok.
I don't see why you're so sensitive about mention of K-mount mirrorless. If you like DSLRs, you're in luck. You can choose from the K-500, K-50, K-5 II and K-3. For me and others who have come to like the K-01, we might be forced to go back to a DSLR next time whether we like it or not.

I know the K-01 is perceived as a failure because of the criticism and price cuts, but the same could be said of the Q at first. Pentax/Ricoh persisted with the Q and made a success of it. There are a variety of things that can be achieved by having the camera read the image sensor all the time and a number of things that can be shown in an EVF. I actually don't think they will do it. I think the critics scared them off. But I think a K-02 could be a very special camera if it was done right.

08-11-2014, 09:12 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Oh well, too many manufacturers with too many cameras chasing too few customers. If so, it looks as if some consolidation is unavoidable.

It's hard to see how the winning manufacturers will get out of this one without investing. If they don't invest, but instead cut back to the bone, the risk is that they will continue to make cameras which people do not want to buy and not enough cameras which they do want to buy. Imho, the key is likely to be software. The industry has generally spurned this so far, but they will have to bite that bullet sooner or later. By and large, it's hard to see people continuing to want to buy cameras which don't connect to anything and, beyond taking a picture, cannot do much else. That's all software. I suppose it's a change from saying you are a camera-maker to asking how things might look if you were in the intellectual property or content creation business.

Once an on-chip electronic shutter is perfected, if ever it is, there won't be much to stop other companies from moving into this sector if they want. A camera with any size of sensor and any capability will be reducible to a circuit board with no moving parts apart from the lens. Intel, Nvidia, AMD, whoever - they all have huge resources and expertise which the camera companies lack.

What are those states in the investment cycle - euphoria, anxiety, denial, capitulation, hope, relief, etc. Sounds like we are getting to the capitulation stage. I guess we'll be in it when some of the companies fess up and stop making unlikley forecasts they have to revise downwards a few months later.
Even with an all-electronic shutter dedicated, high-ISO, large m43+ sensors will be costly and therefore a specialized market. A dark box for film can be made with a pinhole cardboard box. A good sensor.....nope.

It is the optics that matter to photography.

Cameras are already mostly circuit board and CPUs.
08-11-2014, 09:12 AM - 1 Like   #51
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Imagine having the first camera with a selectable infrared, ultraviolet, etc filter in the body.
08-11-2014, 09:24 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by konraDarnok Quote
You need to stop taking people's opinions about cameras personally. I have nothing to do with what you're "allowed" to do.
Saying about the optical reflex viewfinder that "It needs to go" is disregarding those for whom an optical reflex viewfinder is preferable. It might not be personal, but it's about denying us choice.
08-11-2014, 10:11 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Saying about the optical reflex viewfinder that "It needs to go" is disregarding those for whom an optical reflex viewfinder is preferable. It might not be personal, but it's about denying us choice.
Manufacturer's do that all the time

K-mount is a full frame, mirror/prism path by design. Remove the mirror/prism and OVF and you might as well start anew. This allows a shrinking of the form factor, or, inversely, more space to add features like larger batteries to power GPS, wi-fi, in-camera processing, IBIS, tilt/swivel screen, etc.

I still suspect that despite the modest success of the K-01, k-mount will remain a SLR design and the Ricoh GR/GXR replacement line will move into mirrorless.

The "traditional" market for the SLR form factor and performance (think telephoto awesomeness, and art no mirrorless comes even close to achieving) persists and is a stronghold, albeit saturated with some overly bulky designs.

Since the dawn of the roll film format camera makers have been keen to sell you multiple devices for different capture scenarios. I see that trend continuing.

08-11-2014, 10:26 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Manufacturer's do that all the time
By choice I don't mean that every manufacturer should make every possible kind of product, that would be absurd. Manufacturers are offering us choice by the diversity of the products they're all making. I want a "Pentax" kind of DSLR; others wants a "Sony" kind of MILC, or perhaps likes the "Fuji" retro styling.
In this case, it's something more basic though: the choice of viewfinders. Again, being able to choose simply means you can go for one of the manufacturers who's making the type of viewfinder you want.
08-11-2014, 10:36 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
A camera with any size of sensor and any capability will be reducible to a circuit board with no moving parts apart from the lens.
Your vision of camera utopia is certainly shared by many and I suspect we will see many players come (and go) as each technological hurdle is cleared.

However, despite your description which seems to mention the lens as an almost forgotten addendum, I think the companies who focus (oops) on optics will be the only ones surviving in the long haul.

Just because the gadget-enamored contingent dominates all discussion of what-will-happen-next topics doesn't guarantee a sustainable camera industry blueprint.

And it certainly does nothing to raise the bar of photography as a medium of creative expression.
08-11-2014, 11:38 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Those are full frame lenses. Pentax has the 16-50 and 50-135.
Boris, I think you missed Bossa's point, which was about providing glass for a potential FF camera from re-tooled old film lenses.

Some DAs can cover the full sensor, but not those two zooms.
08-11-2014, 12:03 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Boris, I think you missed Bossa's point, which was about providing glass for a potential FF camera from re-tooled old film lenses.

Some DAs can cover the full sensor, but not those two zooms.
And my point was Pentax does crop sensor. It's all well and good to fantasize about a FF, but this is reality.
08-11-2014, 12:20 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
And my point was Pentax does crop sensor. It's all well and good to fantasize about a FF, but this is reality.
Well, I think Bossa was talking about how Ricoh's executives could make FF real, which is fair enough.

But new glass would be needed. The old film lenses aren't enough for a lineup.
08-11-2014, 12:33 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Professional support really is only a thing for sports photographers, isn't it? Other professional users wouldn't get support anyway. .
How many professional sportsphotographers are there anyway?
08-11-2014, 12:34 PM   #60
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K3 monochrom - I'm sold!
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