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08-11-2014, 12:41 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by stillshot2 Quote
Having used a Sony DSLT I found that a Pentax OVF delivers a more pure, traditional, battery saving, and just overall enjoyable photography experience which is why I switched to Pentax in the first place. Some people like OFV's, and after many first hand experiences I am one of those people.

Not to mention the great finder of a 645 body or even an FF body....

08-11-2014, 01:00 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by konraDarnok Quote
Modern mirrorless cameras are no smaller than an SLR from the 70s.
Most aren't. Have you seen the Sony Nex 5T, though? In my mind's eye it seems smaller than an MX.
08-11-2014, 01:05 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by konraDarnok Quote
of course there's a point, to get rid of the mirror box, an expensive, fickle, and outdated solution to the problem of exposing film. It needs to go. There's so much more that can be done with a live viewfinder. The K-01 and sony's Nex cameras have convinced me of that.

Camera size is overstated. Modern mirrorless cameras are no smaller than an SLR from the 70s.
That's generally true (compare an XT-1 to an ME Super) but OTOH, modern DSLRs are larger than many film SLRs.
08-11-2014, 01:17 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
After reading this ad:
1981 Pentax 15mm F 3 5 Linear Super Wide Angle Lens Ad | eBay

Even if only 37 photographers will buy their full-frame each year, Pentax needs to make one, otherwise how can they call themselves a serious photographic company?

I kid of course. But I really hope that Pentax is able to surprise us, perhaps with new iteration of the GR, or with a Q packed with a high-speed processor, or with something along the lines of a compact full-frame, as you mentioned. They could also go down the innovative route: similar to what they did with the Theta, but perhaps a little more mainstream.

Even though everyone is saying the camera market is suffering, I don't think it will ever go away or even shrink in the long term. All it needs is a little transformation, away from the remnants of the film era and closer to what the latest technology can deliver. After all, with the advent of social media people are taking more pictures than ever before, and there's only so much a cell phone can pull off.

What I don't want to see (for Pentax's sake) is Pentax playing catch-up, or releasing more intermediate models than needed without introducing something of essence. They did a great job with the 645Z IMO in terms of features vs value, so they should keep that ball rolling and steer it in the direction of the consumer market.
No Adam you are not kidding, how many Olympus OM10'S were sold because Litchfield, Donovan, Bailey, et all, used OM1/2/4'S in the 70's, Selling a "Top of the Pile", "State of the Art" camera (or anything for that matter) helps sales no end, Pentax has to move on to Full Frame because the maker of the 2.8 zooms in the k mount range is going to stop production in the near future, Tokina do not make hundreds of lens like Sigma they produce a few 2.8 zooms 12-24 (18-35), 16-50(24-70) and 50-135 (70 200), They make then in the most popular mounts ie Nikon and Canon, ignoring Sony Fuji ect, now NiCan top end customers are full frame they have to go full Frame, NiCan owner who buys a $600.00 camera is not going to buy a $600.00 lens so Tokina aims at the top end users, $1800.00 camera $600.00 lens, its also easy to understand financialy more expensive the camera more profit, Henry Ford once said small car small profit.

08-11-2014, 01:53 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Snappertim Quote
No Adam you are not kidding, how many Olympus OM10'S were sold because Litchfield, Donovan, Bailey, et all, used OM1/2/4'S in the 70's, Selling a "Top of the Pile", "State of the Art" camera (or anything for that matter) helps sales no end, Pentax has to move on to Full Frame because the maker of the 2.8 zooms in the k mount range is going to stop production in the near future, Tokina do not make hundreds of lens like Sigma they produce a few 2.8 zooms 12-24 (18-35), 16-50(24-70) and 50-135 (70 200), They make then in the most popular mounts ie Nikon and Canon, ignoring Sony Fuji ect, now NiCan top end customers are full frame they have to go full Frame, NiCan owner who buys a $600.00 camera is not going to buy a $600.00 lens so Tokina aims at the top end users, $1800.00 camera $600.00 lens, its also easy to understand financialy more expensive the camera more profit, Henry Ford once said small car small profit.
Tokina does not produce for Pentax so what's your point ?
08-11-2014, 02:29 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
Your vision of camera utopia is certainly shared by many and I suspect we will see many players come (and go) as each technological hurdle is cleared.

However, despite your description which seems to mention the lens as an almost forgotten addendum, I think the companies who focus (oops) on optics will be the only ones surviving in the long haul.

Just because the gadget-enamored contingent dominates all discussion of what-will-happen-next topics doesn't guarantee a sustainable camera industry blueprint.

And it certainly does nothing to raise the bar of photography as a medium of creative expression.
Utopia hahaha. It would not be my cup of tea at all, but one might as well try to be realistic about the way things are. However, taking digital a stage further isn't that big of a deal and it's hardly unexpected. It's just the next stage after the industry perfected placing a digital sensor in what had been analogue cameras and put a copy into the hands of everyone who wanted one. Television hasn't destroyed film-making and the mp3 hasn't destroyed music, though both have certainly changed.

It's in everyone's interests to encourage healthy volume sales of affordable, MOR cameras to provide all that turnover, jobs, R&D and so forth without which there would be no camera companies as we know them and far fewer of those fine optics you mention. Surely most folks would see premium lenses and well-made but more modern cameras on which to mount them continuing for a very long time indeed but at a lower level than the craziness of the past few years and from fewer and smaller companies and, alas, likely with higher prices. Maybe from some new companies too, if the technology really does change. What percentage of folks even now buy an FA 31mm, a Canon 85mm f1.2L or for that matter a Zeiss Otus. It must be really tiny. For the substantial numbers of folks who want something good but fairly simply and affordable, there's a lot to be said for a thoroughly modern "gadget-enamoured" bridge camera, for example, but they have yet to be built. I think such things should be welcomed and their modernization encouraged as a guarantor of a healthy camera industry and all the nice but often expensive things which come with it. The more that happens, the larger the industry will be (or the less it will shrink). Yes, there are sure to be changes, though who knows exactly what. But once digital was in the wild, they were always going to happen.

Last edited by mecrox; 08-11-2014 at 04:30 PM.
08-11-2014, 03:50 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Tokina does not produce for Pentax so what's your point ?
Nor did Tokina design those lenses...
08-11-2014, 03:52 PM - 2 Likes   #68
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First item of business is to create more FA Limited lenses of the same caliber as the current batch. Add a 20mm f1.8 into the mix possibly but it would need to be on par with the current FA Limiteds. Also they need to up their game on their fast 50mm lenses. FA Limited quality across the board.

Of course a FF K3 type body with say a Nikon style 36mp sensor would do wonders in my opinion... More choices of lenses + a body like that... Then market the thing properly. It can't be marketed as a 'sports camera' per se... but I think a 'real camera for a real photographer' ad campaign would do wonders.

Canon and Nikon sell way more because they don't mind being in Fry's and Wal Mart... they are simply mass marketing corporate machines that target the non photographer mass market of "snappers"... of course you have a substantial game of serious photographers that choose the big two as well.

I think Ricoh/Pentax "success" needs to be defined. If we want every tom, dick, and harry who snaps shots with their 'Rebel' type cameras... they are just mass marketing a canned product that doesn't have to be the best.

If they want to make inroads more into the serious photographer's quiver they are going to have to lure people somehow or bring up a new generation. I would say good old fashioned sponsorship of real photographers would do wonders... if they couple that with a sustained ad campaign and some continued product placement.

Right now Pentax makes a serious product in the K3 and the Limited lenses are awesome.Yet, they are not even trying to chip away at Canon or Nikon's stranglehold on any level.

I would even also say the above mentioned 35mm camera... up the game on the video mode too. I can think of a lot of things they could do in the way of lenses and video cameras as well as still shot functions...but it takes money.

Now with all that said, the economy still very much sucks. There are a ton of people out there who would love to buy good quality camera gear... and who will buy it... there is just pent up demand, but in truth many potential consumers are seriously barely eating and paying rent, much less buying a ton of camera gear....until that changes Pentax is in ways fighting for their share of a largely static market.

In some ways until they fist fight with Nikon and Canon for the 'recognized professional' market... they aren't going to do much else. With a ton of starving artist photographers out there though, why on earth can't they make a "Team Pentax" and pay their way to go on photography expeditions and stuff? That would get the 'professional market' buzzing for sure.

They have to force people to recognize them and their greatness. Have TV shows like 'Art Wolf' but all 100% Pentax... this is why and how Canon sells so much gear...

Pentax needs to market IT'S PHOTOGRAPHERS...and then the cameras will sell themselves. I still like the idea of "Expedition Pentax" where they sponsor entire projects ...from well known photographers... and then pimp the results.


Last edited by alamo5000; 08-11-2014 at 04:09 PM.
08-11-2014, 04:00 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Nor did Tokina design those lenses...
Ostensibly so.
08-11-2014, 05:05 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Just create an API that can be accessed wirelessly or wired, that gives access to everything the camera can, including movement of the sensor. And then hope that developers will create some kick-ass software to do all sorts of crazy stuff.
I once suggested this very idea to a Pentax Exec. He directly stated Pentax will not open its proprietary technology (release an API) to developers.

QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
These are the rules pentax must obey to survive in this market
Consolidate your base.
protect your customers.
don't over extend,
offer innovation that is affordable in development,
diversify into new markets if you can,
protect your market share,
offer products your customers want, [INSERT: Japanese customers]
don't be left behind by the competition,
reduce operating costs,
increase operating efficiency,
incorporate new advances,
reduce assembly costs,
increase return on investment

Is it any wonder pentax is under pressure. Im just grateful that Ricoh is so supportive and investing heavily in a truly innovative and well run business with excellent products.
Is it not fairly well established that these are precisely the things Ricoh is doing - and that doing them is precisely what this Forum complains about?
08-11-2014, 05:21 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Is it not fairly well established that these are precisely the things Ricoh is doing - and that doing them is precisely what this Forum complains about?
Precisely so...
08-11-2014, 05:26 PM   #72
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I'm going to go waaay, waaay back in the outfield with this comment.

I'd suggest Pentax put out two RADICALLY new cameras, like nothing else on the market. A full frame DSLR and a CMOS sensored equivalent, built like a tank, with only the bare essentials. No modes. No programming. No movies. A Hasselblad 500CM in digital guise - ONLY A SHUTTERSPEED WHEEL, MANUAL APERTURE SETTINGS, TTL flash, totally backwards compatible lenswise, both digital and manual. A set of adapters that would allow the full featured mounting of Canon and Nikon lenses as well as THEIR own manual lenses from the past.

A camera like this would, I think, dominate the photo hobby. The tech set wouldn't touch it, but those that put photographs up on the wall, in frames, would. Already I've seen a movement amongst photographers to manual focus and high speed lenses (Samyang, Sigma), because developing photographers have finally gotten the idea that an f1.4 prime can do things NO f4.5-5.6 zoom can do, that autofocus has trouble in certain areas, and you STILL have to expose for the highlights and process for the shadows on a digital camera, just like good old Kodachrome. We have not yet beat the laws of physics.

This camera would also be FILM compatible, and have a built in meter both averaging and spot, completely separate from the shutter system. Like the Pentax MX. And it should look like an MX or LX.

I believe a camera like this would dominate the PHOTOGRAPHIC hobby. Yeah, the tech weenies would NEVER go for it. I've gone back to film for ALL of my black and white, using mostly an MX or a Mamiya C330. And I can do stuff that digital can't.

This camera would completely confound the current market, and be bought not only by Pentaxians, but Nikon and Canon photographers as well. Hey, if you were a Nikon owner, wouldn't you?

I know this camera is never going to happen, but I guy can dream, can't he? I WANT A REAL CAMERA, NOT A TRI-CORDER FROM STAR TREK. And I believe this post was about speculation!

Last edited by gord lucas; 08-11-2014 at 05:40 PM. Reason: SPELLING CORRECTION
08-11-2014, 05:57 PM   #73
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QuoteQuote:
It got me thinking about what Pentax needs to do. Does it remain in the APS-C DSLR arena, or is mirrorless the way to go?
It is simple: Pentax team does not want to compete with other manufacturers.

They will avoid direct confrontation wherever possible, and almost at all cost. The philosophy is simple: best way to defend yourself against a punch is not to be there. Say the FF -- they will avoid it forever if in their heads FF means some sort of direct comparison with other manufacturers. If they think FF is inevitable, they will make it so different users will start scratching their heads about it.

Therefore their choices will appear at least weird, unearthly, quirky, etc. That is why we have the entire Q line. That is why we had a K-01. That is why we are used to odd focal lengths in our lenses. Etc.

In other words: forget you can compare them with any other brand. They won't compete, they will avoid all direct punches, they will do something nobody expects and therefore it will be unique. If you can imagine a mirrorless camera with a mirror, with and without a pentaprism, they can do it. You will scratch your head about it, but eventually learn to love it.

Last edited by Uluru; 08-11-2014 at 06:08 PM.
08-11-2014, 06:00 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I still suspect that despite the modest success of the K-01, k-mount will remain a SLR design and the Ricoh GR/GXR replacement line will move into mirrorless.
Ricoh executives have said Pentax is traditional cameras and Ricoh is "new technology." So far that has been primarily Theta - but it has always meant in my imagination the next mirrorless ILC effort.
08-11-2014, 06:00 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
How many professional sportsphotographers are there anyway?
Just about every parent at their childs sports games. At least based on the number of mis-used DSLR's I've seen...


I think a true pro in any field would be more comfortable knowing they get fast service, free loaners, annual checkups, worldwide support (not just in the purchasing/home country) etc. from their vendor.

---------- Post added 08-11-2014 at 07:06 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I once suggested this very idea to a Pentax Exec. He directly stated Pentax will not open its proprietary technology (release an API) to developers.
Sounds like he is one of the old crusties. Show him the door FIRST. Closed API's make me steam... I'll stop now before I start swearing.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Is it not fairly well established that these are precisely the things Ricoh is doing - and that doing them is precisely what this Forum complains about?
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