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08-11-2014, 06:13 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
Sounds like he is one of the old crusties. Show him the door FIRST. Closed API's make me steam... I'll stop now before I start swearing.
Nope - the guy I spoke with is new, young, smart and trying very hard to make this work. Doesn't mean the decision-makers are enlightened, though.

08-11-2014, 06:30 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Nope - the guy I spoke with is new, young, smart and trying very hard to make this work. Doesn't mean the decision-makers are enlightened, though.
Ah! Good distinction! I wonder - was it your impression that he was 'limited' in his thinking by the aforementioned (aforeassumed?) crusties?

FWIW I'm 45, and the older I get the more I appreciate ideas from ever-younger folks, since they aren't limited by fear or experience. Pretty soon the ideas from 2 year olds are going to sound fabulous...
08-11-2014, 06:51 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
Ah! Good distinction! I wonder - was it your impression that he was 'limited' in his thinking by the aforementioned (aforeassumed?) crusties?

FWIW I'm 45, and the older I get the more I appreciate ideas from ever-younger folks, since they aren't limited by fear or experience. Pretty soon the ideas from 2 year olds are going to sound fabulous...
My sense is he feels limited by circumstances rather than by people. The 'people' are actually pretty pragmatic and seem to have legitimate reasons for their decisions. Good corporate executives want to be stewards, so their instinct is to be deliberate, and reluctant to release control of development to 'The Wild,' an understandable imperative when Forbes ranked you the 500th largest global company by revenue last year.

He's a good guy and believes Pentax will succeed and thrive - but their time horizon for products doesn't match our time horizon for products.
08-11-2014, 07:24 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by alamo5000 Quote
First item of business is to create more FA Limited lenses of the same caliber as the current batch. Add a 20mm f1.8 into the mix possibly but it would need to be on par with the current FA Limiteds. Also they need to up their game on their fast 50mm lenses. FA Limited quality across the board.

Of course a FF K3 type body with say a Nikon style 36mp sensor would do wonders in my opinion... More choices of lenses + a body like that... Then market the thing properly. It can't be marketed as a 'sports camera' per se... but I think a 'real camera for a real photographer' ad campaign would do wonders.

Canon and Nikon sell way more because they don't mind being in Fry's and Wal Mart... they are simply mass marketing corporate machines that target the non photographer mass market of "snappers"... of course you have a substantial game of serious photographers that choose the big two as well.

I think Ricoh/Pentax "success" needs to be defined. If we want every tom, dick, and harry who snaps shots with their 'Rebel' type cameras... they are just mass marketing a canned product that doesn't have to be the best.

If they want to make inroads more into the serious photographer's quiver they are going to have to lure people somehow or bring up a new generation. I would say good old fashioned sponsorship of real photographers would do wonders... if they couple that with a sustained ad campaign and some continued product placement.

Right now Pentax makes a serious product in the K3 and the Limited lenses are awesome.Yet, they are not even trying to chip away at Canon or Nikon's stranglehold on any level.

I would even also say the above mentioned 35mm camera... up the game on the video mode too. I can think of a lot of things they could do in the way of lenses and video cameras as well as still shot functions...but it takes money.

Now with all that said, the economy still very much sucks. There are a ton of people out there who would love to buy good quality camera gear... and who will buy it... there is just pent up demand, but in truth many potential consumers are seriously barely eating and paying rent, much less buying a ton of camera gear....until that changes Pentax is in ways fighting for their share of a largely static market.

In some ways until they fist fight with Nikon and Canon for the 'recognized professional' market... they aren't going to do much else. With a ton of starving artist photographers out there though, why on earth can't they make a "Team Pentax" and pay their way to go on photography expeditions and stuff? That would get the 'professional market' buzzing for sure.

They have to force people to recognize them and their greatness. Have TV shows like 'Art Wolf' but all 100% Pentax... this is why and how Canon sells so much gear...

Pentax needs to market IT'S PHOTOGRAPHERS...and then the cameras will sell themselves. I still like the idea of "Expedition Pentax" where they sponsor entire projects ...from well known photographers... and then pimp the results.
I couldn't agree more (except the 36MP bit).

Pentax really needs to work on their street cred and visibility, and the professional arena is the best place to start. It may not have much overall market share, or be a direct generator of much profit, but the flow-on effect of sales for all Pentax products will increase as a result.

Many punters will buy a brand because "it's what the pro's use".

This is also why I'm such a big advocate of a Pentax FF system....the impact it will have on their street cred, and the attractiveness of such a system to many more professional users.

Why do I care? As I've said elsewhere, more sales is good news for all of us.

08-11-2014, 07:39 PM   #80
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A few commenters have mentioned connected cameras and open software, but it still isn't clear what they hope to achieve with this. I think everyone has a different understanding of how deep they want this to go. Does it mean wi-fi and the ability to upload images direct to websites? Does it mean that the camera just becomes an empty shell of hardware for Google to provide an OS for? Or something in-between. I think you have to specify what you want the camera to be able to do as a result of this technology.

Samsung has perhaps gone furthest with connected cameras. While their phones have done week, I don't think their Android cameras have done so well. I should say that being in Japan, I've never had the chance to try out an NX camera. Sony has a system where the user can download apps onto the camera, but it got criticised for making the user download things that normally come pre-installed. It sounds like most users just ignore it. Most other companies seem to just provide ways to connect with a smartphone. For me that would be enough, but ideally the camera would be able to initiate the connection and not require me to take out the phone at all.

From a strategic point of view, I do think camera makers need to be careful about how much control they cede to software makers like Google. If they end up just making commodity hardware, they'll end up like PC makers, with no control over the functions of the device. If that's the way the camera industry goes, I guess it would be a much less interesting place for Japanese companies to be, because there will always be a cheaper maker for commodity hardware elsewhere.

QuoteOriginally posted by gord lucas Quote
This camera would also be FILM compatible, and have a built in meter both averaging and spot, completely separate from the shutter system. Like the Pentax MX. And it should look like an MX or LX.
While I think most of your proposed camera seems a bit nutty, I do sometimes wonder what a film SLR designed in 2014 would be like. I think it could potentially be successful, if only because nobody else would make one and there are certainly photographers of all brands who like to use film. Unfortunately, Fujifilm is the company that has the biggest interest in promoting the use of film, and they don't have their own SLR system.
08-11-2014, 07:44 PM   #81
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I thought you could buy a k-mount film camera, new, right now?

Didn't NIkon either have a film camera as well, recently, or recently discontinue it?

Still not sure what improvements over the LX are possible... certainly better AF, but that's about it in my mind, right now.
08-11-2014, 08:22 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Utopia hahaha. It would not be my cup of tea at all, but one might as well try to be realistic about the way things are. However, taking digital a stage further isn't that big of a deal and it's hardly unexpected. It's just the next stage after the industry perfected placing a digital sensor in what had been analogue cameras and put a copy into the hands of everyone who wanted one. Television hasn't destroyed film-making and the mp3 hasn't destroyed music, though both have certainly changed.

It's in everyone's interests to encourage healthy volume sales of affordable, MOR cameras to provide all that turnover, jobs, R&D and so forth without which there would be no camera companies as we know them and far fewer of those fine optics you mention. Surely most folks would see premium lenses and well-made but more modern cameras on which to mount them continuing for a very long time indeed but at a lower level than the craziness of the past few years and from fewer and smaller companies and, alas, likely with higher prices. Maybe from some new companies too, if the technology really does change. What percentage of folks even now buy an FA 31mm, a Canon 85mm f1.2L or for that matter a Zeiss Otus. It must be really tiny. For the substantial numbers of folks who want something good but fairly simply and affordable, there's a lot to be said for a thoroughly modern "gadget-enamoured" bridge camera, for example, but they have yet to be built. I think such things should be welcomed and their modernization encouraged as a guarantor of a healthy camera industry and all the nice but often expensive things which come with it. The more that happens, the larger the industry will be (or the less it will shrink). Yes, there are sure to be changes, though who knows exactly what. But once digital was in the wild, they were always going to happen.
You seem to arguing against a position I didn't express; at least it wasn't my intention to convey that the next stage of technology is bad or should be avoided or would destroy photography or wouldn't drive sales. I like gadgets as much as the next guy. Of course technology will continue to shape and define cameras as it has done since daguerreotypes were replaced by dry plates, then film, then digital sensors... In contrast to the ever-changing recording media and viewfinders and all the ancillary bits and pieces, however, a good camera still requires a good lens, as it has since the early days of photography, and as it will for years to come.

I believe there will be many companies that try to get in on the camera-on-a-chip bandwagon, or whatever the gadget of the year is. (And what was hailed as the salvation of the industry will be supplanted by something else in a few years). But the companies most likely to succeed will be those who understand and can produce the optics which enthusiasts want to use. The coolest tech may be a necessary prerequisite, but it is not sufficient in and of itself, for camera biz survival. Have to have the lens. My interest and money will be going where optics is part and parcel of the company dna.
08-11-2014, 08:42 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
Pentax really needs to work on their street cred and visibility, and the professional arena is the best place to start.
The professional market is shrinking and has been largely replaced by the prosumer and hobbyist market. Brands have actually been trying to run away from the "pro" moniker because of the unemployment baggage lately.

08-11-2014, 08:51 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
What *we* should do is wait and see what Pentax actually *does*.
In the meantime, enjoy what we have.
But that would mean having to go out and take photo's.
08-11-2014, 08:52 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The professional market is shrinking and has been largely replaced by the prosumer and hobbyist market. Brands have actually been trying to run away from the "pro" moniker because of the unemployment baggage lately.
Brands might be running away---but it's the stupidest move ever if they are. They need to embrace the very talent that can, and does showcase what really can be created with their products.

What do you think draws so many new people into photography? But I think it's even more than that. Old school endorsement whether implicit or implied matters. A lot.
08-11-2014, 08:57 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
It is simple: Pentax team does not want to compete with other manufacturers.

They will avoid direct confrontation wherever possible, and almost at all cost. The philosophy is simple: best way to defend yourself against a punch is not to be there. Say the FF -- they will avoid it forever if in their heads FF means some sort of direct comparison with other manufacturers. If they think FF is inevitable, they will make it so different users will start scratching their heads about it.

Therefore their choices will appear at least weird, unearthly, quirky, etc. That is why we have the entire Q line. That is why we had a K-01. That is why we are used to odd focal lengths in our lenses. Etc.

In other words: forget you can compare them with any other brand. They won't compete, they will avoid all direct punches, they will do something nobody expects and therefore it will be unique. If you can imagine a mirrorless camera with a mirror, with and without a pentaprism, they can do it. You will scratch your head about it, but eventually learn to love it.
That's almost frightening.
08-11-2014, 09:51 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I thought you could buy a k-mount film camera, new, right now?

Didn't NIkon either have a film camera as well, recently, or recently discontinue it?

Still not sure what improvements over the LX are possible... certainly better AF, but that's about it in my mind, right now.
The film cameras you can buy now don't make use of modern technology. My point was just to wonder what could be shrined if you did apply modern tech to the film camera.

Here's an idea. If the metering sensor were effectively an imaging sensor, you could get a live view and histogram. The camera could take a digital thumbnail of the shot (or the moment just before the shot) and store it in internal memory. When you changed the film mid roll, the camera could recognize it and enable you to see the shots you had taken. This would help with film management. If you had a viewfinder that could overlay an image, it could superimpose an indication of blown highlights over the optical image or show the histogram while shooting.
08-11-2014, 10:02 PM - 3 Likes   #88
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I think that they should switch gears entirely, and go into goat farming business. That is where the $$ is these days.
08-11-2014, 11:49 PM - 1 Like   #89
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Just make all limited primes WR. Small size and WR will make Pentax attractive to the more discerning camera shoppers.
08-12-2014, 12:17 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
That's almost frightening.
C'mon this is just Ulurus...
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