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03-15-2015, 09:41 AM   #946
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
...and trying to reshape an entire brand disregarding its loyal users is a quasi-futile attempt...
In some ways, Ricoh has. Pentax was something of a budget brand in digital, and now its not. Pentax is slowly becoming more upscale, with more unique features, and is less the poor little brother to Canikon.

03-15-2015, 10:13 AM   #947
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
But, and big but, I cannot buy a mirrorless for any price today that matches the performance of my ovf that I use right now.
That might be true. I have the K-3 and the A7II and the A7 EVF is bigger and in some ways better than the K-3. In some ways the K-3 OVF is better. The EVF still can't reproduce the DR of a scene to match what I see in my K-3 OVFIF you have an A900 then you definitely have a better OVF. Most OVFs sold are penta-mirror and they are definitely not as good as the EVFs in the A7, X-T1, or OMG EM-1.

Right now your OVF is better, but will it be in 3 years? A lot of what we are talking about is the future. Resolution is already greater than what the human eye can perceive. Refresh rates are very close. If the technology continues to evolve at the same speed, then in 3 years the EVF will exceed what the human eye can perceive. Everyone seems to act like technology is not improving.

I would prefer an OVF to an EVF, but there are other advantages to the EVF like never having to deal with front/back focus and AF accuracy is much better with the A7II than with the K-3 when it comes to shooting wide open. I'm also happier with the metering and WB of the A7II when shooting light skin tones or worrying about red lipstick having a magenta cast. One sensor handles WB/color, metering, AF and it appears that I'm getting more accurate results. Yes, there are still drawbacks to the A7 line and its slower than the K-3 in several ways. I hope that the improvements in the EVF will drive OVF focused companies to improve OVF technology. Improve AF accuracy and end front/back focus issues. The technology is there to have cameras that automatically calibrate the lenses. We shouldn't need an accessory like the Sigma dock.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
As for #1, they are still making the best DSLRs. Chances are they will continue to do so for as long as we'll keep buying them - and we will.
People will keep buying them in smaller and smaller numbers as the market continues to shrink.
03-15-2015, 10:57 AM   #948
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Watching a video stream of the event that someone captures with an MILC.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's rather like watching a video stream of the event while being at the event. And claiming that it's so much better than to simply look around.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. So, some people prefer DSLRs because it provides a better experience when viewing. If I needed that, I'd use a pair of binoculars. As a photographer though, my only priority is firmly with the pictures that I take, not to my own viewing experience at that time. To each his own.

And yes, it is my true and honest opinion that Pentax would flourish if they would provide the public with a very capable mirrorless FF camera.
03-15-2015, 11:17 AM   #949
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Right now your OVF is better, but will it be in 3 years? A lot of what we are talking about is the future.
Exactly my point.

03-15-2015, 12:56 PM   #950
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
In some ways, Ricoh has. Pentax was something of a budget brand in digital, and now its not. Pentax is slowly becoming more upscale, with more unique features, and is less the poor little brother to Canikon.
Except that far from disregarding their loyal users, their strategy is specifically targeting us. For example, they're finally giving us the "full frame", right?

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Right now your OVF is better, but will it be in 3 years? A lot of what we are talking about is the future. Resolution is already greater than what the human eye can perceive. Refresh rates are very close. If the technology continues to evolve at the same speed, then in 3 years the EVF will exceed what the human eye can perceive. Everyone seems to act like technology is not improving.
Yes, OVF will still be better in 3 years. The EVF technology is evolving, but slowly and some things are difficult if not virtually impossible to fix. For example the frame rate is tied with sensor's ability to capture enough light in a given time.

3 years ago, the best EVFs had the same resolution as today. That's the real rate of improvement.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
People will keep buying them in smaller and smaller numbers as the market continues to shrink.
Again the dreaded "future"... so far, DSLRs outnumbers MILCs by more than 3:1. And despite the market, Pentax is not in decline; so whatever they're doing works.
This cannot be said for companies which pioneered the MILCs - e.g. Olympus, which is still losing money on their Imaging Systems division; despite giving up on DSLRs, and despite not being subjected to a hostile takeover, downsizing and then sold to a 3rd-party entity.
03-15-2015, 01:33 PM   #951
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. So, some people prefer DSLRs because it provides a better experience when viewing. If I needed that, I'd use a pair of binoculars. As a photographer though, my only priority is firmly with the pictures that I take, not to my own viewing experience at that time. To each his own.

And yes, it is my true and honest opinion that Pentax would flourish if they would provide the public with a very capable mirrorless FF camera.
I suppose some people need all the overlays and other things to make a good photograph. I suppose others don't want or need need that stuff.

Just let me (and Ricoh) choose to do what I want and stop trying to tell me and everyone else like me we're wrong.
03-15-2015, 02:08 PM - 1 Like   #952
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I suppose some people need all the overlays and other things to make a good photograph. I suppose others don't want or need need that stuff.

Just let me (and Ricoh) choose to do what I want and stop trying to tell me and everyone else like me we're wrong.
He didn't. Someone stating their "sincere opinion" is not tellling anyone else they are "wrong". Broadly, I would guess anyway that most folks see EVFs over the next few years as 1) gradually improving; and 2) gradually becoming more common as they or hybrid systems start to appear in what was once upon a time the classic vanilla SLR. This is hardly controversial and is probably a consensus view today even if it turns out not to be correct. It's very unlikely that OVFs will simply disappear from the market - an extreme view - but everything changes and camera companies will have to follow the market, if it alters course. Only time will tell. In the meantime it's clear that many people and many here too are getting the best of both worlds by shooting multiple systems/brands. Comparisons are inevitable.

Last edited by mecrox; 03-15-2015 at 02:49 PM.
03-15-2015, 02:18 PM   #953
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Ok, I admit it was an extreme analogy.

However Samsung brought the lag down to 5 ms, which is probably rather fast, and I suppose they can still improve that. Suppose you have a very minimal lag, a FF sized (or larger) viewfinder (even with an APS-C sensor) where you can't distinguish the pixels, and a screen that has the dynamic range of the sensor and is able to display that, without turning it into a raw photo first. You can have as much or as little displayed as you want (even fewer overlays than you see right now in a DSLR), and you don't need to take the eyes of the viewfinder to review the photos (i.e. no problem with a washed out screen on a sunny day). Some sensors already see more than the human eye can in low light situations (Sony a7S), especially given that you lose some light through the mirror.

Such an EVF may still be several years in the future. Would that be acceptable/desirable? There are after all people who want the bigger FF viewfinder, but don't want to give up on a crop.

There are still disadvantages, yes. I'd say it's especially battery life, I don't see how that is going to improve to the point that a DSLR won't be significantly better. If you look through the lens for hours waiting to press the shutter, EVFs will be useless, and that isn't ever going to change. Hopefully it will be good enough though. Things like a sensor that notices when you are going to look through the viewfinder and quickly (it has to be really fast) turns on sensor and screen could help in most instances.

Perhaps manufacturers will be making long lenses in a way that they can be easily used on the mirrorless and mirrored system, because that's where DSLRs will be most useful. The mount might be swapped between K and K-mirrorless, two mounts could come in the box. A reduced line up of general purpose lenses, mostly left over from DSLR days, and once in a while a new DSLR, which is basically an updated K-3 sort of camera (or with full frame). Mirrorless may have more choice and a couple of dedicated lenses, where it makes sense (you can mount any K mount lens on the K-mirrorless mount, via adapter). I had the impression that's what Pentax wanted to do with the K-01, just with the idea of making K-mount lenses that don't work on K-mount DSLRs, as they extend into the mirror box. The K-01 died before they could fully realize that.

My worry/expectation is that most of the market moves towards mirrorless cameras... including high end ones that look and feel pretty much like a high end DSLR, and are used that way. I hope Pentax doesn't get left behind. It takes several years to build up a lens line-up of dedicated lenses, so if they react too late, people will buy into other systems, and once they have done that, they won't be switching system unless the difference is huge... For now I'd rather shoot a DSLR than a mirrorless camera, but I highly doubt it will stay that way. Perhaps the camera to convince me otherwise has already arrived, I just haven't had the chance to try it.

03-15-2015, 03:00 PM   #954
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
He didn't.
Not on that particular Reply.
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Someone stating their "sincere opinion" is not tellling anyone else they are "wrong". Broadly, I would guess anyway that most folks see EVFs over the next few years as 1) gradually improving; and 2) gradually becoming more common as they or hybrid systems start to appear in what was once upon a time the classic vanilla SLR. This is hardly controversial and is probably a consensus view today even if it turns out not to be correct. It's very unlikely that OVFs will simply disappear from the market - an extreme view - but everything changes and camera companies will have to follow the market, if it alters course. Only time will tell. In the meantime it's clear that many people and many here too are getting the best of both worlds by shooting multiple systems/brands. Comparisons are inevitable.
Upthread I wrote that Ricoh's business decision for now is to stay traditional. Should the entire industry move in the EVF direction - should they improve to the point that there is a real advantage and no disadvantages to an EVF - I supposed Ricoh would follow suit, at least as a user choice.

For the time being I don't use any of the advantages - histogram, focus peaking, electronic information not available in the frame margins - so my preference is to see what the lens sees, not what the camera tells me it thinks the sensor sees. I'll die soon enough. Until then it grows tiresome to hear this argument over and over and to hear the same posters criticizing Ricoh's business decisions that don't meet their sincere beliefs.
03-15-2015, 03:25 PM   #955
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Except that far from disregarding their loyal users, their strategy is specifically targeting us. For example, they're finally giving us the "full frame", right?
Eh, not necessarily. The was a bit of an exodus of Pentax users when Ricoh jacked up lens prices. So, yes, Pentax did in fact disregard their user base. And frankly, you shouldn't even bring up full frame, as by not providing the FF their users have been clamoring for for years, Pentax have been disregarding them until the end of 2015.

Pentax is no better and no worse to their users than the majority of camera companies.


QuoteQuote:
3 years ago, the best EVFs had the same resolution as today.
QuoteQuote:
That's the real rate of improvement.
There were 2.8 million dot EVF's in cameras 3 years ago?


QuoteQuote:
Again the dreaded "future"... so far, DSLRs outnumbers MILCs by more than 3:1. And despite the market, Pentax is not in decline; so whatever they're doing works.
This cannot be said for companies which pioneered the MILCs - e.g. Olympus, which is still losing money on their Imaging Systems division; despite giving up on DSLRs, and despite not being subjected to a hostile takeover, downsizing and then sold to a 3rd-party entity.
And the year before that, DSLR's outsold MILC's by 4:1. DSLR sales are declining relative to MILC.
03-15-2015, 03:25 PM   #956
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
In some ways, Ricoh has. Pentax was something of a budget brand in digital, and now its not. Pentax is slowly becoming more upscale, with more unique features, and is less the poor little brother to Canikon.
I would agree with that. .
Pentax already did that with entire crop line, but people were unaware of it because of the lack of FF, and because there was no 35mm equivalent lens.

Unfortunately two things are driving photography oriented mindset and companies are judged by that (whether we like it or not):
the FF, and the
35mm FoV lens. A DSLR company, for Pete's sake, must have BOTH.

Well, they have a plastic FF mockup, finally, so that is encouraging.
But still not a single 35mm standalone lens, not a single compact with 35mm lens. It is downright mindless. It is like stating openly in public, "We don't care if photographers will switch to Pentax of Ricoh or not, or will our refugees come back. Because we refuse to provide them the frame they desire for comeback".

Last edited by Uluru; 03-15-2015 at 03:33 PM.
03-15-2015, 03:32 PM   #957
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
My worry/expectation is that most of the market moves towards mirrorless cameras... including high end ones that look and feel pretty much like a high end DSLR, and are used that way. I hope Pentax doesn't get left behind. It takes several years to build up a lens line-up of dedicated lenses, so if they react too late, people will buy into other systems, and once they have done that, they won't be switching system unless the difference is huge... For now I'd rather shoot a DSLR than a mirrorless camera, but I highly doubt it will stay that way. Perhaps the camera to convince me otherwise has already arrived, I just haven't had the chance to try it.
You'd rather shoot a DSLR, but you're asking Ricoh/Pentax to reallocate resources needed for their "full frame" and APS-C DSLR lines to a new MILC product line. Isn't that a contradiction?

As Monochrome said, Ricoh is continuing the traditional line for now. This year they'll be working on launching the "FF" DSLR, next year they will have to continue launching D FA lenses... no way they could possibly introduce a new mount earlier than 2017, and even that would be fast IMO. If you're requiring anything else, Samsung already makes a camera for you - it almost handles like a DSLR, and it costs only $1500.

There really isn't any other point in this "MILCs will rule the world" talk than criticizing Ricoh/Pentax' strategy, and implicitly our choice. Even if it's a sincere criticism of our choice.
And since we're on Pentaxforums, it's no different than asking a friend to give you a ride, then constantly criticize his car for not being a hybrid. IMHO.
03-15-2015, 03:34 PM   #958
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Not on that particular Reply.Upthread I wrote that Ricoh's business decision for now is to stay traditional. Should the entire industry move in the EVF direction - should they improve to the point that there is a real advantage and no disadvantages to an EVF - I supposed Ricoh would follow suit, at least as a user choice.

For the time being I don't use any of the advantages - histogram, focus peaking, electronic information not available in the frame margins - so my preference is to see what the lens sees, not what the camera tells me it thinks the sensor sees. I'll die soon enough. Until then it grows tiresome to hear this argument over and over and to hear the same posters criticizing Ricoh's business decisions that don't meet their sincere beliefs.

Even though I personally would slightly prefer a really good EVF to an OVF - I shoot a lot of manual tele glass - I believe there's a real market space for RIcoh to be an OVF company.

Of course, I also believe that the DA 35/2.4 should be the kit lens on the non-flagship cameras, so what do I know?
03-15-2015, 03:37 PM   #959
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
And the year before that, DSLR's outsold MILC's by 4:1. DSLR sales are declining relative to MILC.
Don't fret about it. It is only normal to happen.
Even in times of film, mirrorless film cameras were selling 10x better than SLRs. So what?

Only snotty "digital guru kids" who never held any film camera, cry havoc from high towers of their childish blogs.

---------- Post added 03-16-2015 at 09:41 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You'd rather shoot a DSLR, but you're asking Ricoh/Pentax to reallocate resources needed for their "full frame" and APS-C DSLR lines to a new MILC product line. Isn't that a contradiction?
Contradiction is the fuel of this forum. And it keeps people endlessly chewing the same subject, over and over again.
If the mister was true to his call, he'd buy A7 or whatever mirrorless is out there, and had fun.

But no. Endless harping of doom, and drumming the mirrorless drum, must not cease.

Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
Tu-dum, tu-dum, tu-dum. Mirrorless, tu-dum, tu-dum. tu-tum.
03-15-2015, 03:47 PM   #960
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Eh, not necessarily. The was a bit of an exodus of Pentax users when Ricoh jacked up lens prices. So, yes, Pentax did in fact disregard their user base. And frankly, you shouldn't even bring up full frame, as by not providing the FF their users have been clamoring for for years, Pentax have been disregarding them until the end of 2015.
The worse of the price rise didn't happened under Hoya? And we know the previous pricing didn't work, instead it hurt Pentax by branding them as a 'bargain' brand.
I am bringing up full frame, because we're talking about Ricoh Imaging here. And Ricoh Imaging started working on the full frame about 3 years ago, i.e. shortly after they took over.

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Pentax is no better and no worse to their users than the majority of camera companies.
I'm afraid you are mistaken - they are better than the majority of camera companies for us, because they keep making the products we like.

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
There were 2.8 million dot EVF's in cameras 3 years ago?
2.4, in Sony NEX-7 (announced in August 2011). What camera has 2.8 million dots?

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
And the year before that, DSLR's outsold MILC's by 4:1. DSLR sales are declining relative to MILC.
A slow decline, and the cause might not be MILCs winning over. Perhaps DSLRs are so good, that people stopped upgrading?
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