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03-17-2015, 12:48 AM - 1 Like   #976
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Adam, please create a "Pentax suxx and my Sony is so much better" section. Please.

03-17-2015, 02:06 AM   #977
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
After reading the debate below, i've been asking the counter question:

When will OVFs catch up to EVFs?

What i mean by that is: I've bought 4 flagship pentax DSLRs from K10 to now K3. Not one of them can hold a candle to the EVF manual focusing capabilities of my $600 Nex 6 which i purchased a coupla years ago. I'm presently sitting in our family room, and changing my FA50 from my K3 to my Nex6 and back again. With the Nex6, I can use focus peaking with good room light, and if i turn the lights down, i can use the magnify feature in the EVF. The K3's OVF cannot do any magnify feature or focus peaking in its oVF. They can only be used at arms length in liveview. Big FAIL for DSLRs.

I have the DA35 macro, the M100F4 macro and the Vivitar 55mm F2.8 macro. All 3 of those work far better with the Nex 6 than my double the cost K3. If i dim the lights substantially in my family room, the K3 OVF gets dim and even more difficult to focus. Not the Nex 6, i just turn up the ISO to 800, the EVF lights up and i can easily use the magnify function in the EVF.

The OVFs on DSLRs have fallen far behind in their capability to do such a basic function as manually focus a lens. Its the OVF design that needs to catch up, not the EVF function which has no problem with manual focusing duties. I do all the my macro work with the Nex.
Some kind of focus-peaking overlay would solve this problem with an optical VF, provided it can be switched off when not needed. Don't ask me how it would work but I can't imagine it's beyond the realms of R&D. I tend to get something of the same frustration when photographing butterflies in the summer. OTOH, my style is more about choosing a focus point and letting the DOF fall where it may, and all done manually, so it's not a big deal. In fact, it's the quality of the OOF rendering that usually concerns me more. A sharp picture with horrid bokeh and ye olde aberrations is pretty useless really. However, yes, a turbo-charged OVF would be most welcome. I rarely use Live View, having found it rather a kludge and not all that practical, with reflections on the rear LCD often nixing proceedings anyway even on a tripod. Widening the view, however, I do wonder whether AF has yet been fully nailed down by anyone. Whether it's PDAF or CDAF, there seem to be issues with every system. Both seem treated as immutable givens, but one wonders whether some brilliant mind out there may eventually come up with a new and superior approach.
03-17-2015, 02:44 AM   #978
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote

The OVFs on DSLRs have fallen far behind in their capability to do such a basic function as manually focus a lens. Its the OVF design that needs to catch up, not the EVF function which has no problem with manual focusing duties. I do all the my macro work with the Nex.
Phil, no EVF beats my K-30's OVF with a split-image focusing screen ... lowlight, macro, sunny, whatever.

If you think about it, it's similar to how phase detection autofocus works. It's an iterative process that ceases when the light travel paths are identical.

The EVF is hindered by being a TV screen that cannot do that, it uses contrast as a proxy for focus.

I have frequently found on my NEX-7 and A7 that one side of a face that has a bigger light/shade difference lights up yellow, the near eye in the darker side does not, and now you're guessing. If the subject has uniform light levels on its features - especially in low light - the focus peaking reveals only the edges.

As for Live View, it is simply the EVF on a bigger screen so I don't understand you here.

My NEX-3 and K-30 do *not* have to be held at arm's length to manually focus in Live View, and I don't know why you'd try it that way. They both happily magnify, too.

It might make sense with a touch screen to give some space for an arm to choose a focal point in front of your face but a camera isn't a phone and the shutter button is at the top of the unit and the lens' focusing ring is at the front.

Methinks you spend a lot of time on the Mirrorless Rumors website. The rhetoric is familiar!

Last edited by clackers; 03-17-2015 at 03:03 AM.
03-17-2015, 04:55 AM   #979
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clackers, I have had such a screen in my istDS. And my FM2. In the FM2 it seemed more useful, the DS once it got darker became rather... useless. I can see quite ok in the dark, but I can't focus anymore. It becomes really dark. If the camera can boost the brightness that would be good.

There shouldn't be much of a problem putting a screen in the viewfinder, though that may make it a bit dimmer. LCD screens are essentially transparent (not sure how much though). If they are transparent enough you can install one in a fixed position. Then when the mirror flips up for live view a backlight can be moved into the light path so you have the backlighting for the screen.

Maybe that is what they are working at for the FF. To counter the sub 100% transparency of the screen they could make the mirror adjust it's translucency, so while you aren't focusing it will be brighter.

An alternative would be this:
http://www.finepix-x100.com/x100/hybrid-viewfinder
They would need to find a place for the prism... or maybe modify the pentaprism? Place the screen on the outside of the pentaprism so it can shine into it? Does that work? I'd still want the mirror to be able to change how much light it lets through to the AF sensor and how much it reflects. It would greatly improve the viewfinder AND the low light focusing ability.

Those are the main improvements I can still see in a DSLR, and I might be willing to give up a smaller and lighter camera for that.


Last edited by kadajawi; 03-17-2015 at 05:15 AM.
03-17-2015, 06:22 AM   #980
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I found an image of where the AF points display is... it's outside the pentaprism, shining into it from roughly where the Pentax logo sits. Replacing that with a high quality TFT LCD or OLED screen should be relatively trivial It's just a matter of cost. Now the only disadvantage could be that the size of that screen gets limited, we won't suddenly see a much bigger screen unless that prism is increased in size too. But say a FF prism and the monitor is fitted in an APS-C camera, you'd have a FF sized EVF...

Pentax K-30 vs K-5 IIs Cross Sections - Photokina 2012 | PentaxForums.com
03-17-2015, 07:48 AM - 1 Like   #981
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I agree that split screens work well. I bought one of those Katzeye split screens for the K10, then transferred it to my K20. But later found that i really needed the spot metering for my indoor theater shooting. And the split screen mucked that up.

I also agree that focus peaking doesn't work at lower light levels - one really needs some sharpish edges/high contrast surfaces for it to work. So the magnify function is needed to compensate. Why am i talking about live-view at arms length - because its there that Pentax and other DSLRs offer FP and magnify. - not available in a pentaprism - as yet anyway.

@Kunzite - I don't believe my K3 suxx as you put it. It has a marvelous AF feature that i needed for my work. It also has the anti-moire feature that no other DLSR has. Its an excellent camera and i bought it even knowing that the manual lens focus wasn't that good. And i bought the Nex for manual focusing - get it?

I know how debating works - you argue the good points and try to ignore the weaknesses on your side. Sure the pentaprism offers beautiful clarity, but it doesn't manually focus on a cropped camera worth a tinker's dam. EVFs are excellent in manual focus but drain batteries over even a short time. FF DSLRs are supposed to be a lot better at manual focusing but i'll take that under advisement until i check it out for myself.

EVFs are not as bad as some of you make them out to be; and OVFs are not as good as some of you make them out to be. They both have their pros and cons.

This thread is supposed to be about "what should Pentax do". I stand by my original suggestion for Pentax and Canikon - install EVF in at least one FF model, throw the daXX mirror out, and let the customers decide which model they want - EVFs or OVFs. I think K-mount would be very competitive, especially with a modern EVF because its got a large battery.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Phil, no EVF beats my K-30's OVF with a split-image focusing screen ... lowlight, macro, sunny, whatever.

If you think about it, it's similar to how phase detection autofocus works. It's an iterative process that ceases when the light travel paths are identical.

The EVF is hindered by being a TV screen that cannot do that, it uses contrast as a proxy for focus.

I have frequently found on my NEX-7 and A7 that one side of a face that has a bigger light/shade difference lights up yellow, the near eye in the darker side does not, and now you're guessing. If the subject has uniform light levels on its features - especially in low light - the focus peaking reveals only the edges.

As for Live View, it is simply the EVF on a bigger screen so I don't understand you here.

My NEX-3 and K-30 do *not* have to be held at arm's length to manually focus in Live View, and I don't know why you'd try it that way. They both happily magnify, too.

It might make sense with a touch screen to give some space for an arm to choose a focal point in front of your face but a camera isn't a phone and the shutter button is at the top of the unit and the lens' focusing ring is at the front.

Methinks you spend a lot of time on the Mirrorless Rumors website. The rhetoric is familiar!
03-17-2015, 08:14 AM   #982
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phil, if you go for a K mount you might as well keep the mirror and make the camera switchable between OVF and EVF. Looks like it's not difficult to implement... all that is needed is a small LCD or OLED display sitting between Pentax logo and pentaprism.

If they do it it would be nice if it can be bigger than the image coming from the mirror. That way you can have additional information displayed. For example a RGB histogram that is fed by the light meter while in OVF mode. And in EVF mode you have a bigger screen.

You could also have the camera display the image for review in the viewfinder after a shot is taken... just leave the mirror up after a shot to block out light. Zoom in, review it all you want, in bright daylight without having to take the camera from your eye.

How much could this increase the price? $50? $100? I would buy it (at least in APS-C format). And they could do a version that leaves out the screen and puts in the usual focus point indicator. The body could remain the same, like with the K-500 and K-50.
03-17-2015, 09:03 AM   #983
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Phil, of course you wouldn't have the K-3 if you thought it "suxx" But I'm tired of constantly hearing praises for EVFs and how DSLRs with their OVFs are inferior/obsolete/dying, and that's on a Pentax forum. If this was a "Pentax DSLR-only forum" MILC people would still do it.
Please understand how such a constant assault can be considered an attack on our choice.

You've got it wrong I'm afraid, the argument is always that EVFs are "better", "the future" etc. and - on this forum - that Pentax should go MILC asap. It's not us going to MILC forums and telling people around how EVFs are not ready yet to replace OVFs.

Your original suggestion is: "i hope for Pentax's sake, and mine, that the first Pentax FF is a mirrorless. It means no more of this micro-phase focus calibration - which doesn't work particularly well on zooms anyway. ". I knew back then, and I guess we all know it now that it's a DSLR (yes, it is - because its development started some 3 years ago). Now it's "Its been evident to me for sometime that finally, the K3 successor needs to come out with a superlative mirrorless APS format.". It won't happen either - and such ideas completely disregard us (people happy with DSLRs, specifically with Pentax DSLRs).

P.S. I think Ricoh Imaging should eventually launch a large sensor MILC system. I would be totally fine with that, however:
- their DSLR line should not suffer because of it (because of the loyal K-mount userbase, which I'm part of)
- I'm realistic about how soon it might happen (not before 2017 IMHO - there's much work to be done on the K-mount)

P.P.S. Perhaps the best solution would be the creation of a separate "Large sensor MILC" section, just like it was done for the FF. This thread is off-topic anyway, as people's opinion are neither Pentax news nor rumors.


Last edited by Kunzite; 03-17-2015 at 11:44 AM.
03-17-2015, 01:05 PM   #984
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Mirrorless is dominating the "new photographer" segment. This is why Canon is taking such a beating.
Is Canon really taking "such a beating"? Canon at least is turning a profit, while the mirrorless companies continue to lose money.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The entry level is being dominated by mirrorless and now it is moving over to the advanced amateur.
It's hard to get reliable information on this, but as much as I can gather, it's simply not true. Amazon's "best sellers in digital cameras" is dominated by P&S cameras. But the ILCs on the list tend to be Canikon DSLRs, including a fair share of rebels:

4. Canon Rebel T5
5. Canon Rebel T5
6. Nikon D7000
13. Nikon D3300
18. Nikon D3200
22. Canon Rebel T3i
23, Canon T5i
24. Sony A6000
30. Sony Nex 5TL
33. Canon Rebel T5
35. Samsung NX3000

One would expect mirrorless online, since it appeals more to the tech savvy consumer. In the B&M retail space, I rarely see mirrorless ILC offerings. Canikon seems to dominate even in this venue.

The fact is, entry level mirrorless has not fared particularly well, with many models succumbing to intense fire sales. A couple years ago I bought an Oly EPL-1 for $130. Both Olympus and Panasonic have indicated they will focus more on higher end models, as it is easier to maintain profitable margins on such products, and buyers of such product purchase more lenses.

It would appear that the entry level market has shrunk a fair bit; but the mirrorless companies have been hit harder by this than Canikon.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
In twenty year's time, today's younger crowd for whom digital is the no-brainer default may start asking for a lovely old antique camera like the K3 to be resurrected because it represents a way of photogrpahy which by then no longer exists, warts and all, other than at Leica prices. Of course, their work equipment will be outputting 50 mpx files at 100 frames a second with a DR matching the human eye's, etc. with everything do-able in post from focus point to bokeh and all else.
It's interesting to speculate on what the future might bring, but many such predictions turn out wrong, often by a large margin. See this 1967 article speculating on what would happen in the next 15 to 30 years. A few predictions kind of came out right, but many seem so absurd that it should induce skepticism about predictions of the future made by experts.
03-17-2015, 01:21 PM   #985
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Phil, of course you wouldn't have the K-3 if you thought it "suxx" But I'm tired of constantly hearing praises for EVFs and how DSLRs with their OVFs are inferior/obsolete/dying, and that's on a Pentax forum. If this was a "Pentax DSLR-only forum" MILC people would still do it.
Please understand how such a constant assault can be considered an attack on our choice.

You've got it wrong I'm afraid, the argument is always that EVFs are "better", "the future" etc. and - on this forum - that Pentax should go MILC asap. It's not us going to MILC forums and telling people around how EVFs are not ready yet to replace OVFs.
Kunsite - I'm sorry if you felt like your were under a constant assault - my comments were meant as a balanced view, but perhaps i erred due to my enthusiasm.

This might cheer you up. The Jan 2015 CIPA figures are now posted and they show generally that DSLRs did better month on month shipments than MILCs. A good sign for DSLRs.

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201501_e.pdf
03-17-2015, 02:09 PM   #986
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Zack doesn't get paid. Fuji gave him some of the gear and they did pay for him to fly to Japan as part of the Fuji professional program. They also paid to send him to Africa on a shoot with Fuji gear (write a review). He doesn't actually get paid by Fuji. He uses Fuji professionally because it meets his needs and he really likes it. If Fuji didn't meet his needs, he wouldn't ruin his career using poor equipment just to get a free camera. I shoot around the music industry here in Nashville, and he shoots a lot of musicians in and around Atlanta. I've ran into him on several occasions. Super nice guy who loves photography. There is a good chance that he will ditch the Phase One, which he really does not like, in favor of a 645z. He loves the MF look. He hates Phase One.
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, that is being paid, by anyone's definition.


The moment you learn a restaurant or book or car review has been written by someone who's received money or equivalent from the people doing the selling, they've been compromised, right?

I don't think there is anything wrong to hire a photographer to do a job. Ricoh-Pentax has a lousy reputation on that site, by either not hireing one and have no representative images to go with their new products or to hire someone from a different camp.
03-17-2015, 02:39 PM   #987
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philbaum:
Apologies for not being clear (and for ranting) - not from you in particular, actually you are pretty balanced IMO. Unfortunately our preferences are in conflict, and since Pentax/Ricoh has limited resources going MILC with the FF or instead of a K-3 successor means no DSLRs for us.
Fortunately for me, Pentax will continue to support and expand their DSLR line for the foreseeable future.

My position about MILCs is actually similar to that about FF few years ago - except for the last point:
- Pentax can survive without it (at least for now)
- it won't happen soon (can't simultaneously launch two lens lines, DFA and MILC)
- they should probably do it when possible, however:
- they should do it without hurting K-mount (the FF is K-mount)
Thank you for your understanding.

Yes, I'm aware of that; the DSLR market is slowing down but still significantly stronger than MILCs.
03-17-2015, 02:53 PM   #988
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yes, I'm aware of that; the DSLR market is slowing down but still significantly stronger than MILCs.

Made me think to look and yes still going down....

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201501_e.pdf

Stunning is the only number above 100% and that is sales in Yen for compact camera's, so the industrie has reached a level where the declining sales in yen is compensated by more expensive models.
03-17-2015, 03:48 PM   #989
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
It's interesting to speculate on what the future might bring, but many such predictions turn out wrong, often by a large margin. See this 1967 article speculating on what would happen in the next 15 to 30 years. A few predictions kind of came out right, but many seem so absurd that it should induce skepticism about predictions of the future made by experts.
That's the point of the future: we can only imagine it, so we are always wrong when the reality arrives. Where's the fun in being right? I'll bet there are one or two cameras around today which will be considered classics in 20 years, though, and worth resurrecting in whatever way folks then prefer. Sometimes if a design hits the spot it can never be bettered. Like some of those old classic Ferraris, or their V12 engine really.
03-17-2015, 09:28 PM   #990
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@Kunzite and RonHenricks:

The way i read the report, Jan 2015 shows more decline for compact systems than for DSLRs. The total value shipped for DSLRs in Jan was up 8.8% and down 21% for MILC. And several other numbers were similar for units also. Declines for DSLRs in many cases, but WORSE declines for MILC.

First time i've seen worse trend for MILC than DSLRs over the last year. Perhaps a one time correction or perhaps products are now correctly positioned for their normal demand. 2015 could be an interesting year.

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201501_e.pdf
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