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03-29-2015, 05:35 PM   #1066
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
...Sigma will be back. But that is several years down the road I think. Still the ground work is being laid.
This is pure and unsatiated consumerism we require and loudly demand, like cry-babies.
This isn't anything about photography, or pure necessities to be creative and do the job. We have lost imagination long ago.

As a compensation for the terrible lack of creativity and clear vision, we demand options, choices and options beyond any reason. We must be spoon-fed with iterations of the same and ready-made solutions. Options in such a plentitude than no economy can support with real means.

We just need to get over it. Or we'll all go insane. I mean, we already are insane in our demands, but it must dawn to us that such a world is a fantasy world and is collapsing.

03-29-2015, 08:04 PM   #1067
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
This is pure and unsatiated consumerism we require and loudly demand, like cry-babies. This isn't anything about photography, or pure necessities to be creative and do the job. We have lost imagination long ago. As a compensation for the terrible lack of creativity and clear vision, we demand options, choices and options beyond any reason. We must be spoon-fed with iterations of the same and ready-made solutions. Options in such a plentitude than no economy can support with real means. We just need to get over it. Or we'll all go insane. I mean, we already are insane in our demands, but it must dawn to us that such a world is a fantasy world and is collapsing.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry.
03-29-2015, 09:24 PM   #1068
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
MILC works, and the Q is the best MILC system ever made. Everything falls apart after mounting any zoom lens on it.
But Q is a miracle.
I hope this makes sense to you.
It sounds like Alice-in-Wonderland logic to me.
03-29-2015, 11:07 PM   #1069
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry.
I think he's saying we should stop wasting our time writing comments on internet forums demanding new camera gear and go out and be creative. This he says in one of his many comments on internet forums.

03-30-2015, 12:08 AM   #1070
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Ok, I must confess the strong pushing of the opinion Pentax/Ricoh should have better worked on a mirrorless system, in "best" case for Q, APS-C, 35mm and 645, in a forum of a manufacturer that just announced a new 35mm DSLR with dedicated high quality lenses is a little bit irritating.

And taking some of the arguments aside (viewfinder...) and coming to the core of an imaging system, the image quality and the argument of compactness - how could this really be improved with a mirrorless system?

Compactness of an imaging system is related to the size/weight of a camera with attached lens. Some have already shown that the difference in registration distance becomes almost irrelevant with most lenses attached. A compact version with some comfort regarding to everyday shooting with different focal lenghts can be achieved for example with a S-NEX with a compact Sony E 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS PZ (SEL-1650). Looking at the tests it's obvious that this comes at a cost: Sony E 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS PZ (SEL-1650) - Review / Test Report - Analysis
heavy optically uncorrected distortions of up to 6,5%, up to 5EV (sic!) of vignetting at the widest angle, only 50% of the resolution at the image borders. Sure, you can digitally correct for some of that, but be aware that you take photos with ISO 100 in the center and 1600/3200 at the borders!
Badly picked example? Don't know, The fresh tests of the Carl-Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* E 16-70mm f/4 ZA OSS are also not very promising: Carl-Zeiss Vario-Tessar T* E 16-70mm f/4 ZA OSS ( Sony SEL1670Z ) - Review / Test Report indicating that at f4 the resolution in the corners is less than half of the center. Is this the price you have to pay for the reduced registration distance, I am sure Zeiss could actually do better otherwise? This lens is neither cheap nor compact, so why this limitations?

Maybe Oly/Pana m4/3 is the way to go for mirrorless, at least if you want to gain any size advantage to DSLRs. But for IQ let Ricoh build their 35mm DSLR, I think with 645Z and K-...system Pentax can become a no brainer for people looking for IQ. I appreciate this way.

(and let the Ricoh G become the seed for an additional mirrorless system..., whatever development it will take to go this route...)

Last edited by MMVIII; 03-30-2015 at 01:42 AM.
03-30-2015, 12:37 AM   #1071
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I'm not a fan of mirrorless cameras (apart from the Q7, but that's a different story), but I do understand their attraction. Along with my DSLRs, I have an Olympus EM-5 and a Panasonic GX7, and I wonder how many people are like me: I don't use them for what I consider my "serious" photography (as an out-and-out amateur, nothing I do could really be considered as serious) but take them when I don't want the encumbrance of an APS-C or FF system. Because of this, I have bought only the small, light lenses. I did own the Olympus 12-50 mm f2.8, but this unbalances the bodies (including an OM-1 which I hated and have now sold). The Oly and Panny are capable cameras, and I have used them at concerts with slow lenses with quite remarkable results. but neither of them bring me unalloyed joy. For a start, I can see the dots in the M-5 viewfinder, and the delay between what you see and what you get when you press the shutter is quite startling. And don't even get me started on the Olympus menu system. The Panasonic is much better in all these respects, but irritates me with its touch screen: I'm forever inadvertently changing stuff. It's too technologically advanced for my simple tastes. That said, it's the camera I will be taking with me for my Canada trip next month, along with the Tamron 14-150 mm and either the Leica 15 mm or 25 mm.

I think (and hope) that in the future there will be a place for DSLRs and MILCs and I heartily agree with MMVIII that Ricoh should develop the mirroless arm of their optical business under the Ricoh brand, and keep making us those glorious Pentax DSLRs!
03-30-2015, 12:53 AM   #1072
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
and the delay between what you see and what you get when you press the shutter is quite startling.
If only a DSLR would intantly show the taken picture for review in the VF, then you would see the delay between what you see and what you get is present there too. To various degrees depending on the camera of course. In other words, if you would turn off instant review in the VF of those cameras, it wouldn't bother you as much, just like with a DSLR. I prefer to be aware of the limitations of my cameras though.
03-30-2015, 01:41 AM   #1073
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
If only a DSLR would intantly show the taken picture for review in the VF, then you would see the delay between what you see and what you get is present there too. To various degrees depending on the camera of course. In other words, if you would turn off instant review in the VF of those cameras, it wouldn't bother you as much, just like with a DSLR. I prefer to be aware of the limitations of my cameras though.
I'm sure you're right, but the delay on the M-5 is an order of magnitude greater than with a DSLR. I don't notice it with the Panasonic, but I don't have instant review turned on in that. I will take your tip and see if I can turn it off on the Olympus (if I can ever find it in that dreadful menu system). My biggest beef with EVFs is that - and this is subjective - I don't feel as involved in the scene as I do with an optical finder, and this is a big part of the photography experience for me. For me, an EVF is no different to looking at the live view on the rear display, though of course much more useful in bright light. Maybe this will change for me, I don't know. What I do know is that with my K-3, K-5 IIs and the forthcoming FF Pentax, my involvement with mirrors and optical finders is set to continue for a long time to come.

03-30-2015, 08:51 PM   #1074
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Yes yes, we are all very passionate about cameras and what we think Pentax should do. I was only throwing my hat into the ring of opinions. I fully believe that with the pixie dust and size of the DA and FA limiteds it would make a natural companion to a compact(er) camera vs a DSLR sized camera. Obviously, this is all a bit too much to ask but I'm sorely in love with my Limiteds and would love to have something smaller than my K-5iis. Yes, I have a K-01 Stormtrooper but I tend to grab the K-5iis when given a choice and would love a new version of a K-01 with a VF.
I have always believed that inspiration comes from many places and sometimes for me it comes from the inspiration of loving my Limiteds. I can only imagine if it was paired with an equally loved compact( not my GR, though I shoot a ton of fashion with that lil beast ).
We as photographers, are a finicky bunch of artists. I would never ever tell anyone that their way of being an artist is wrong, we all have our path to what makes us creative and how we create our art. But surely, I can say this: for my creative professional life as a photographer, I love the Limiteds. And I believe whole heartedly that if Pentax was going to create a compact camera with an EVF/OVF that utilized the power of the Limiteds, I would snatch it up in a hot second. I can see me on set, between takes, capturing the hidden moments of the young ingenue. I could be working for a fashion gig, walking through the wooded trails of Malibu, shooting a leggy model, as she tries to keep her balance in her heels. Or I could be simply be having lunch with one of my actor friends as I listen in as he tells me of his adventures of weeding through the Hollywood Starlets. Then I would snap a candid of him as he looks away as he gathers his thoughts.
All of this with such a simple camera that just captures with the beauty of a limited lens.
03-31-2015, 01:59 AM   #1075
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QuoteOriginally posted by uzimakiroar Quote
Yes yes, we are all very passionate about cameras and what we think Pentax should do. I was only throwing my hat into the ring of opinions. I fully believe that with the pixie dust and size of the DA and FA limiteds it would make a natural companion to a compact(er) camera vs a DSLR sized camera. Obviously, this is all a bit too much to ask but I'm sorely in love with my Limiteds and would love to have something smaller than my K-5iis. Yes, I have a K-01 Stormtrooper but I tend to grab the K-5iis when given a choice and would love a new version of a K-01 with a VF.
I have always believed that inspiration comes from many places and sometimes for me it comes from the inspiration of loving my Limiteds. I can only imagine if it was paired with an equally loved compact( not my GR, though I shoot a ton of fashion with that lil beast ).
We as photographers, are a finicky bunch of artists. I would never ever tell anyone that their way of being an artist is wrong, we all have our path to what makes us creative and how we create our art. But surely, I can say this: for my creative professional life as a photographer, I love the Limiteds. And I believe whole heartedly that if Pentax was going to create a compact camera with an EVF/OVF that utilized the power of the Limiteds, I would snatch it up in a hot second. I can see me on set, between takes, capturing the hidden moments of the young ingenue. I could be working for a fashion gig, walking through the wooded trails of Malibu, shooting a leggy model, as she tries to keep her balance in her heels. Or I could be simply be having lunch with one of my actor friends as I listen in as he tells me of his adventures of weeding through the Hollywood Starlets. Then I would snap a candid of him as he looks away as he gathers his thoughts.
All of this with such a simple camera that just captures with the beauty of a limited lens.
Ever since I've started using the limiteds I've been whishing for a camera that is built around the same concept. The limited line of lenses are focussed on compactness. So much even, that an important aspect, like lens speed and all that it influences, is sacrificed. There is no camera body that makes such a (or any) compromise to reach the same level of compactness. They are even styled completely differently. If I pair my DA 15 with my K-5IIs for example, it looks like camera and lens are from two entirely different brands. The cool clean metal of the ltd vs the metal covered in shiny plasticcy finish of the camera. The knurled metal of the one, vs rubber of the other. Compactness and specialised vs big but do-all. I have always assumed that the limited lens line was developed for a different camera, but when R&D was ready to focus on it, Pentax changed course again.
03-31-2015, 02:44 AM   #1076
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I tend to agree here. The 20-40 limited should be the prototypical exponent regarding the characteristics: compact, lightweight, still metal and sealed. Give me the electronics of a K-3 (minus) in such a body and I am sold. I assume here APS-C could really shine, with just one body Pentax could establish a whole additional line challenging Fuji and Olympus. No, EVF would not be the way to go. It's about reliability, no focus by wire, no bullshit, bring an alternative that really offers what other retro-camouflaged systems only promise.
03-31-2015, 04:07 AM   #1077
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Ever since I've started using the limiteds I've been whishing for a camera that is built around the same concept. The limited line of lenses are focussed on compactness. So much even, that an important aspect, like lens speed and all that it influences, is sacrificed. There is no camera body that makes such a (or any) compromise to reach the same level of compactness. They are even styled completely differently. If I pair my DA 15 with my K-5IIs for example, it looks like camera and lens are from two entirely different brands. The cool clean metal of the ltd vs the metal covered in shiny plasticcy finish of the camera. The knurled metal of the one, vs rubber of the other. Compactness and specialised vs big but do-all. I have always assumed that the limited lens line was developed for a different camera, but when R&D was ready to focus on it, Pentax changed course again.
I wish that camera was some LX-like deal, not K-S1-like deal.

I thought that same, many times, and I still believe there was a desire to design a light and compact body before acquisition by Ricoh. Something that reminds of Spotmatic or LX. Even after the K-01 crazy adventure, an LX-like retro would have sold 10x better than K-S1, even at 25% on top of K-S1 introductory price. And would increase incentive for Limited lenses. But nada. It is almost as Ricoh's marketing was dragged by a brain-dead hipster, totally not understanding how to attract users to PENTAX — THE brand that defined THE classic SLR look, for Pete's sake...

I really don't understand what Ricoh thought, but K-S1 and K-01 were their brain children. Pity. Pity. A bunch of limiteds already created a climate for a retro styles camera people were readily EXPECTING from Pentax, and opened an opportunity for Pentax to simple create and seize the whole retro-DSLR market.

That is how I read the interview one Pentax manager talked about their (pre-Ricoh) ideas. But, most likely, Hoya scrapped the whole idea, Pentax was forced into one only DSLR, Pentax was sold, time was lost, Ricoh came, all started from scratch, more time lost, crazy ideas introduced by new marketing that made brand look ridiculous.

Fuji came, realising the opportunity Pentax never did, made one attempt which was a huge success, repeated it again, and expanded a whole niche originally — in thoughts — created by DA Limiteds, and poor, poor Pentax.

Last edited by Uluru; 03-31-2015 at 04:26 AM.
03-31-2015, 05:04 AM - 1 Like   #1078
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Oh, sorry, that was your box, Pandora?
03-31-2015, 05:13 AM   #1079
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He switched into his anti-Pentax/Ricoh mode, I see... I was wondering when it would happen.

The K-01 was announced in February 2, 2012 - a mere 4 months and one day after Ricoh took over Pentax. The claim that it was Ricoh's "brain child" is utterly ridiculous - starting new projects is not something you'd do day one after acquiring a company, and it's taking longer than 4 months anyway. Most likely, it was all Pentax could think of while under severe constraints - and I mean Hoya's; Ricoh's part was just not asking Pentax to cancel it.
03-31-2015, 07:36 AM   #1080
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I wish that camera was some LX-like deal, not K-S1-like deal.

I thought that same, many times, and I still believe there was a desire to design a light and compact body before acquisition by Ricoh. Something that reminds of Spotmatic or LX. Even after the K-01 crazy adventure, an LX-like retro would have sold 10x better than K-S1, even at 25% on top of K-S1 introductory price. And would increase incentive for Limited lenses. But nada. It is almost as Ricoh's marketing was dragged by a brain-dead hipster, totally not understanding how to attract users to PENTAX THE brand that defined THE classic SLR look, for Pete's sake...

I really don't understand what Ricoh thought, but K-S1 and K-01 were their brain children. Pity. Pity. A bunch of limiteds already created a climate for a retro styles camera people were readily EXPECTING from Pentax, and opened an opportunity for Pentax to simple create and seize the whole retro-DSLR market.

That is how I read the interview one Pentax manager talked about their (pre-Ricoh) ideas. But, most likely, Hoya scrapped the whole idea, Pentax was forced into one only DSLR, Pentax was sold, time was lost, Ricoh came, all started from scratch, more time lost, crazy ideas introduced by new marketing that made brand look ridiculous.

Fuji came, realising the opportunity Pentax never did, made one attempt which was a huge success, repeated it again, and expanded a whole niche originally in thoughts created by DA Limiteds, and poor, poor Pentax.
I completely agree with you about the retro Pentax DSLR idea. It makes a lot of sense with the limited lenses. The idea of limited lenses has always been undermined by the lack of a small body to use them with. Ironically, the much-maligned K-01 and K-S1 are the two bodies that get closest to realising the potential of a compact kit with the limiteds. In the case of the K-01, they work very well functionally together and also in terms of style in my opinion, but I know plenty would disagree with me.

I think the MX-1 compact did quite well for Ricoh - at least the retro design went down well with reviewers and owners. It sold well in Japan at higher prices than the internally identical Olympus XZ-2, the main difference being the design. I think there's a chance that Ricoh will look at that and see the opportunity to make a retro DSLR in the same vein. What the K-S1 shows, even if you hate it, is that Ricoh can make a very compact but functional DSLR. It strikes me that if you can put everything necessary in the K-S1, it's just a matter of moving parts around to make an MX- or Spotmatic-sized DSLR.

I suppose you could infer from the development of the limited lenses that Pentax intended to make such a camera in pre-Hoya days, but nothing that Hoya did indicated an interest in this. To me the Hoya days were characterised by coloured DSLRs, development of the Q and K-01 and the drying up of lens releases. On the plus side, they also made some very good high-end DSLRs and the 645D. I think you need to look at the calendar realistically, Uluru, and stop thinking that a camera or lens could go from concept to the shop shelves in the space of a few months.
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