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08-12-2014, 12:26 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
So Fuji and Olympus are not serious?

Keep in mind that Fuji, Sony, and Olympus were THE definition of consumer grade camera makers in the days of film. In AF SLR world Pentax (and Minolta) duked it out with Canon while Nikon was the more elite brand (until Canon started making its sewer pipes). Olympus ducked out of SLRs due to AF problems and went gonzo on the P&S market while Fuji mostly stuck to P&S and medium format (Texas Leicas and their massive studio kit).

The camera market has never seen any sort of rigid duality.
Agreed on everything but Sony. I know Sony bought Minolta photo business but frankly, I never felt Sony did anything in the line of what Minolta did. So giving credit to Sony for that is... so-so IMO

08-12-2014, 01:27 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I can't directly comment about Olympus, but I can with Fuji.
I have an X-T1 and I frequent some Fuji boards. There are a lot of pros that are using Fuji right now....but from what I've seen is the majority see Fuji as their second system. The system pros use when not doing "serious" work.
The flash system is miles away from being serious. They have a 50-140mm f2.8 on the lens roadmap, but they are missing telephoto primes.

They have made serious strides in the past 3 years, but they still have a way to go.

And remember, there are rumors of both FF and MF mirrorless cameras being talked about.
Those may never materialize, but it still goes to show that FF, right or wrong, is seen as the professional format, and until that perception is changed, people are not going to stop clamoring for one. It is up to the camera manufacturers to change the perception of the public, not the other way around.
There are a lot of self-proclaimed pros who claim they use Fuji.

Anyone with a SmugMug Pro account or similar can call themselves a pro.

Fuji's lenses are largish and costly. All companies make excellent glass.

Problem with FF is the cost goes way, way upend that omits market penetration. Once people start spending lots of $$ they tend to get full-featured systems including macro and tele and superior flash. That's still only DSLR.

Pentax needs to get built-in wi-fi and tethering going.
08-12-2014, 02:14 PM   #123
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A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)


Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)


comments please
08-12-2014, 02:23 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)


Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)


comments please
That would give you a nice viewfinder, and very shallow DOF. IQ would be a mixed bag compared to more expensive APS-C setups. Certainly high ISO would suffer.

I wouldn't buy anything in M42 past 85mm or so. Maybe 135 would be OK. It's not worthwhile to me. Might be worth it to you, but those older, longer telephotos aren't very good, don't have AF, and are being coupled to a camera that doesn't do well at high ISO.

Depends on what you want to do. Honestly $400 for a 'one trick pony' (shallow DOF) is worthwhile compared to some other expenses. I'm about to spend $1400-1600 on a tilt-shift lens, for example.

08-12-2014, 03:30 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)
Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)
comments please
I don't need a starter system,
I "need" a K mount FF to pair with an APS-C K mount camera
to give better wide angle coverage (faster, more even)
than what my DA 15 is giving me right now.
08-12-2014, 03:40 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
There are a lot of self-proclaimed pros who claim they use Fuji.

Anyone with a SmugMug Pro account or similar can call themselves a pro.

Fuji's lenses are largish and costly. All companies make excellent glass.

Problem with FF is the cost goes way, way upend that omits market penetration. Once people start spending lots of $$ they tend to get full-featured systems including macro and tele and superior flash. That's still only DSLR.

Pentax needs to get built-in wi-fi and tethering going.
Largish and costly are by product of being fast. I dont know of anyone that makes fast, small and cheap.
08-12-2014, 04:11 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)


Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)


comments please
Just thinking how good it could be: Well it beats the hell out of the K-7 dog:
http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Pentax-K-3-versus-Pentax-K7-versus-Canon-EOS-5D___914_615_176

I once used a very old pre-AI Nikkor lens on my Pentax (adapter) and that had some issues, but deliverd some stunning images. It was 300mm/f4.5 and with adapter it became 375mm/f5.6. Problem with some old lenses is that wide open they don't deliver and that is why you wanted to toy around with the 5D.
08-12-2014, 04:30 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)


Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)


comments please
Lose the old primes and get a middling, modern zoom. Much better.

08-12-2014, 05:08 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Sony is doing well and growin.

I think you must read different financial and sales information to the rest of us, Kadajawi!




Sony Credit Cut To Junk Status As Smartphones 'Cannibalize' Its TV And PC Businesses - Forbes

Last edited by clackers; 08-13-2014 at 01:32 AM.
08-12-2014, 05:46 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I can't directly comment about Olympus, but I can with Fuji.
I have an X-T1 and I frequent some Fuji boards. There are a lot of pros that are using Fuji right now....but from what I've seen is the majority see Fuji as their second system. The system pros use when not doing "serious" work.
The flash system is miles away from being serious. They have a 50-140mm f2.8 on the lens roadmap, but they are missing telephoto primes.

They have made serious strides in the past 3 years, but they still have a way to go.

And remember, there are rumors of both FF and MF mirrorless cameras being talked about.
Those may never materialize, but it still goes to show that FF, right or wrong, is seen as the professional format, and until that perception is changed, people are not going to stop clamoring for one. It is up to the camera manufacturers to change the perception of the public, not the other way around.
to be fair to Fuji, well they might be the "secondary system choice" but still became top choice for that purpose-- in 3 years. That's great for a system that started from scratch and just recently... Compared to, say, Pentax and decades of the K-mount. Or the Sony NEX which has been around longer too.
08-12-2014, 06:54 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
to be fair to Fuji, well they might be the "secondary system choice" but still became top choice for that purpose-- in 3 years. That's great for a system that started from scratch and just recently... Compared to, say, Pentax and decades of the K-mount. Or the Sony NEX which has been around longer too.
It's an exciting time for Fuji fans. Fuji's strategy for building the X series has been quite interesting compared to the other makers, and I think quite smart. They started from the top with their bodies and lenses and then provided lower cost options. Other mirrorless makers started from the bottom or middle of the line up, introducing cheap consumer lenses first and only filling out the high end much later - Olympus f2.8 lenses are only coming out now after five years. In Sony's case the lenses never came before they moved onto the next thing. I think Fuji's attitude inspires confidence in users. They may not sell huge amounts of camera bodies, but I would guess the average X series customer invests more in lenses and feels more committed to the system.

I think Fuji as a company is in a similar position to Ricoh. Cameras are a high-profile but small part of their business at the moment. I think both companies are serious about cameras but more because they see it as an important part of their corporate identity than as a big money-maker. The big difference is Fuji had no system before the X series, so they are in a system-building phase. Ricoh has inherited a mature but under performing system with the Pentax acquisition. What they have to do to make it successful is different. If they really do make a full frame K-mount camera or a new mirrorless system, they will have to shift into system-building mode and I think that will be an exciting time for Pentaxians too.
08-12-2014, 08:37 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)


Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)


comments please
I think Zach Arias said almost this exact thing 4 or 5 years ago. There is some sense to it, given some reasonable assumptions.
08-12-2014, 11:21 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)


Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)


comments please
Feasible, with some potential issues.

35mm - mirror clearance problem (my 35/3.5 did not clear)
50mm - the 8 element version is documented as not clearing the mirror. My modified A50/1.7 was no issue. An already modified (by previous owner) K50/1.2, barely cleared. Some varying results out there concerning the 7-element Takumar 50mm on the 5D
135mm - no issue
200-300mm - should be no issues. They usually don't stand up to the resolution/CA resistance for more pixel dense sensors though, but the 5D is only 12mp on FF (about equal to the density of a 5mp aps-c) so its very forgiving.
That said, a PITA to use.

You would also need a EEG precision focusing screen (~$45) to get good focus accuracy with fast lenses.
The stock 5D screen is no good at all (maybe for f4 o5 f5.6 lenses only )
08-12-2014, 11:50 PM   #134
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Back in 2012, I posted is it possible to make a FF camera within the price range of 1K to 1.3K. The Sony A7 body is 1.5K and had attracted some to try it. I still think that a low cost, K-mount , no frills FF camera is still the camera that RICOH should build. It should attract a lot of new buyers especially hobbyist or those who have a lot of vintage lenses. I like it to have an OVF but it seems that to lower the cost of production it would then be mirror-less. Fine, just give us the option of adding a high quality VF to complement it.
08-12-2014, 11:53 PM - 1 Like   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imageman Quote
A canon 5D mk1 200 dollars
An m42 adapter 10 dollars
5 m42 primes 200 dollars (35mm 50mm 135mm 200mm 300mm)
Total cost of going FF 410 dollars (cheap starter system)
comments please
I've yet to find a 5D Classic cheaper than $500 but yes, it's certainly a way to enter the FF world. I've owned two 5D's and while the FF sensor is great, the cameras are trash from a user's point of view. It has one of the worst back LCD screens, even the best photo in the world will look like crap on that LCD. And its user interface is utter crap compared to Pentax. But its sensor is definitely nice, provided you shoot in RAW. I liked what my 58mm f/2 Takumar did on the 5D: http://www.camerac.nl/foto/58mmTak/58mmtak-01.jpg

---------- Post added 08-13-14 at 08:58 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Feasible, with some potential issues.

35mm - mirror clearance problem (my 35/3.5 did not clear)
50mm - the 8 element version is documented as not clearing the mirror. My modified A50/1.7 was no issue. An already modified (by previous owner) K50/1.2, barely cleared. Some varying results out there concerning the 7-element Takumar 50mm on the 5D
135mm - no issue
200-300mm - should be no issues. They usually don't stand up to the resolution/CA resistance for more pixel dense sensors though, but the 5D is only 12mp on FF (about equal to the density of a 5mp aps-c) so its very forgiving.
That said, a PITA to use.

You would also need a EEG precision focusing screen (~$45) to get good focus accuracy with fast lenses.
The stock 5D screen is no good at all (maybe for f4 o5 f5.6 lenses only )
My 7-element 50mm f/1.4 Takumars did not clear the mirror on two 5D's I had (back then I had no 8-element version).

Regarding the longer focal lengths: the 200mm f/4 Super-Multi-Coated is definitely up to snuff for serious work, IMO (see for instance http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo293/spotmatic/smctak200-05.jpg). Anything longer than that and IQ will degrade dramatically, indeed.
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