What Should Pentax Do?

lytrytyr · 11-10-2014, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

There won't be significant improvements in the APS-C DSLR sector in terms of stills in the near future.

Samsung already have a backlit APS-C sensor in mirrorless,
so similar technology in a DSLR shouldn't be very far behind.

Experience with the Q cameras shows how these sensors punch well above their weight.

kadajawi · 11-10-2014, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by lytrytyr

Samsung already have a backlit APS-C sensor in mirrorless,
so similar technology in a DSLR shouldn't be very far behind.

Experience with the Q cameras shows how these sensors punch well above their weight.

Samsung won't be interested in selling that sensor to Pentax. And when Sony manages to put the tech in their sensors, they too might want to keep that advantage to themselves. In any case it's not Pentax achievement if they get to use the sensor. It doesn't mean they have to develop something...

**monochrome** · 11-10-2014, 12:23 PM

The train has never left the station. Never, never, ever.
Fujitsu Milbeaut.
When Ricoh can manufacture or purchase an image processor that can perform high quality video recording and develops processing software that filters SR noise then they will feature video as a selling point. Not before.

One thing at a time. They've just done cropped medium format. Next up is FF. Somewhere out there is a large-sensor MILC. Lens development is constant across 4 platforms. They're probably working on AF and flash sync in stages, to introduce as major new upgrades are released.

The various commenters on these threads and in this Forum always put their own priorities first, assuming everyone else shares their views on what Pentax should do.

I think they should just keep making high quality cameras and lenses, selling them at decent value prices for the quality and arranging to do so at a profit to the company so they can keep doing it.

We should all hope and pray the Japan economy expands strongly and mightily for the next 15 years. I'll gladly buy in the USA whatever they decide will sell in Japan.

kadajawi · 11-10-2014, 01:56 PM

SR noise does not have to be filtered. Those who care about audio will record externally, those who don't won't notice. They can put in a warning that audio might be affected by the SR. That's all.

AF will come with the sensor if they go mirrorless, so no need to work on that.

Flash sync doesn't bother me at the moment, but they really should catch up.

Nikon is getting decent video out of the latest Milbeaut and Sony (?) sensors, though it is hardly class leading. But I'd be fine with D5300 video quality, + focus peaking during video, + SR and all of that inside the K-3 body.

I do have wishes for stills, especially to make use of the SR in an easy way... I want bracketing! If possible an API that allows us to program and remote control our camera.

reh321 · 11-10-2014, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by lytrytyr

Samsung already have a backlit APS-C sensor in mirrorless,
so similar technology in a DSLR shouldn't be very far behind.

Experience with the Q cameras shows how these sensors punch well above their weight.

I've been expecting mirror-less to take over the APS-C world, but the data I've seen indicates that any change in market share has been rather slow over the past few years. I still believe it will happen, but not right now, so Pentax has time to develop the technology. If I Recall Correctly, Canon used their Rebel line to try out some of the technology that showed up in their EOS-M camera; Pentax could do something similar with a K-50 successor, assuming that such a camera is somewhere in the near-future.

In the meantime, I believe they should add an EVF, perhaps an optional variant, to the Q-line, because the evidence seems to be that Asian markets will buy a mirror-less camera sans EVF, but that seems to be a really tough task in the US and Europe.

kadajawi · 11-10-2014, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by reh321

I've been expecting mirror-less to take over the APS-C world, but the data I've seen indicates that any change in market share has been rather slow over the past few years. I still believe it will happen, but not right now, so Pentax has time to develop the technology. If I Recall Correctly, Canon used their Rebel line to try out some of the technology that showed up in their EOS-M camera; Pentax could do something similar with a K-50 successor, assuming that such a camera is somewhere in the near-future.

In the meantime, I believe they should add an EVF, perhaps an optional variant, to the Q-line, because the evidence seems to be that Asian markets will buy a mirror-less camera sans EVF, but that seems to be a really tough task in the US and Europe.

But a Q with an EVF will become a rather ungainly thing, and lose it's size advantage.

Clothears · 11-10-2014, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by reh321

In the meantime, I believe they should add an EVF, perhaps an optional variant, to the Q-line, because the evidence seems to be that Asian markets will buy a mirror-less camera sans EVF, but that seems to be a really tough task in the US and Europe.

Well I wouldn't buy a mirrorless with no viewfinder (like the K-01). It should either have an OVF, with an overlay to show shooting data, or an EVF with a high refresh rate and focus peaking in the viewfinder. Since I wear glasses these days, the rear screen isn't much use without them, while with them, I can't see into the VF properly.

reh321 · 11-10-2014, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

But a Q with an EVF will become a rather ungainly thing, and lose it's size advantage.

The serious competitors in the US and Europe have EVF available, either built-in or add-on. The ones that have gotten very low market share in the US and Europe (like Q and EOS-M) have not had EVF available. I'm convinced they could rearrange the body to add EVF with only a small change in the overall size ... or they could make an add-on like the already available, but seriously over-priced, OVF unit. In any case, if they have any hope of competing in the mirror-less US/Europe market, they will need an EVF. Otherwise, they are wasting their time here and might as well withdraw to Asia, as Canon seems to have done.

kadajawi · 11-10-2014, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by reh321

The serious competitors in the US and Europe have EVF available, either built-in or add-on. The ones that have gotten very low market share in the US and Europe (like Q and EOS-M) have not had EVF available. I'm convinced they could rearrange the body to add EVF with only a small change in the overall size ... or they could make an add-on like the already available, but seriously over-priced, OVF unit. In any case, if they have any hope of competing in the mirror-less US/Europe market, they will need an EVF. Otherwise, they are wasting their time here and might as well withdraw to Asia, as Canon seems to have done.

There are more reasons why the Q is a failure in Europe and the US. "We" want big sensors, and not the smallest camera there is. For Europe it should at least be mFT, better APS-C or FF. And then an EVF is not such a big problem.

reh321 · 11-10-2014, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

There are more reasons why the Q is a failure in Europe and the US. "We" want big sensors, and not the smallest camera there is. For Europe it should at least be mFT, better APS-C or FF. And then an EVF is not such a big problem.

I am a regular at another discussion forum where photographers using all brands congregate. I've been there just five months, but I've learned a lot about photography - and photographers - during that time. I can tell you with absolute certainty that few serious photographers will have anything to do with a camera that does not provide a viewfinder. In the words of one of them, "Using an LCD outside is worse than point-and-shoot; it is hope-and-shoot".

And I would present the following facts to substantiate my statement that lack of EVF is a deal-breaker as far as US / Europe is concerned:

(1) The Canon SX-60 was received with great joy. It's sensor is 1/2.3, the same as Q and smaller than Q7, but it does have an EVF. I believe that attaching a legacy zoom lens to a Q7 would address many of the same needs but provide better image quality.

(2) The EOS-M was a dismal failure in US / Europe, and Canon didn't even bother to introduce the EOS-M2 here. The EOS-M family has an APS-C sensor, basically exactly the same package as used on the T5i, but it has no EVF.

Same company; the camera with smaller sensor but EVF is a big success, while the camera with a larger sensor but no viewfinder is a big flop.

kadajawi · 11-10-2014, 04:35 PM

Fair enough, still I doubt even a EVF Q would have success. And it is not like the SX60 was a big success, right? Haven't heard anything about it anyway. LX100, RX100 though... (and the RX100 doesn't have an EVF).

reh321 · 11-10-2014, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

Fair enough, still I doubt even a EVF Q would have success. And it is not like the SX60 was a big success, right? Haven't heard anything about it anyway. LX100, RX100 though... (and the RX100 doesn't have an EVF).

Actually, I've already seen several threads from excited new SX-60 owners who can't wait to show off their new pictures. I don't know how that translates into actual shipments, of course.

**monochrome** · 11-10-2014, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

Fair enough, still I doubt even a EVF Q would have success. And it is not like the SX60 was a big success, right? Haven't heard anything about it anyway. LX100, RX100 though... (and the RX100 doesn't have an EVF).

If Ricoh was going to experiment with EVF technology Q would be the line to do it on. They often experiment with a single-issue body, such as the K-01 (focus peaking, internal technology, effectively LiveView), MX-1 (hinged LCD), built-in Wi-Fi (WG-30), and not always on top-of-the-line cameras.

The X-S1 bodies may become a test platform line.

**Mikesul** · 11-10-2014, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

If Ricoh was going to experiment with EVF technology Q would be the line to do it on. They often experiment with a single-issue body, such as the K-01 (focus peaking, internal technology, effectively LiveView), MX-1 (hinged LCD), built-in Wi-Fi (WG-30), and not always on top-of-the-line cameras.

The X-S1 bodies may become a test platform line.

This is a very reasonable suggestions. They could release a possibly risky camera and test the new features without risking their main line reputation or sales.

JPT · 11-10-2014, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

If Ricoh was going to experiment with EVF technology Q would be the line to do it on. They often experiment with a single-issue body, such as the K-01 (focus peaking, internal technology, effectively LiveView), MX-1 (hinged LCD), built-in Wi-Fi (WG-30), and not always on top-of-the-line cameras.

The X-S1 bodies may become a test platform line.

I don't know how much need there is to experiment with an EVF. It's just a case of deciding to do it and sourcing the screen from Epson or Sony. Ricoh has had an EVF module for their GX and GXR cameras in the past. I think Pentax rejected EVFs the Q and K-01 for different reasons. In the Q's case it would make it too large and more expensive. I doesn't mean they won't have an additional model with EVF at some point. In the case of the K-01, they probably felt that if they added a viewfinder to a K-mount camera, it might as well be an optical one. The K-01 with a viewfinder was the K-30.

The tilting screen is also easy enough to implement, but they just haven't decided to do it. Perhaps the weather sealing issue was part of the reason. Perhaps they didn't see the demand for it.

The interesting thing is that in the Photokina interview, questions about these features got a kind of "knowing smile" response. I think we'll see both in the near future.

11-10-2014, 12:23 PM	#618
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	The train has never left the station. Never, never, ever. Fujitsu Milbeaut. When Ricoh can manufacture or purchase an image processor that can perform high quality video recording and develops processing software that filters SR noise then they will feature video as a selling point. Not before. One thing at a time. They've just done cropped medium format. Next up is FF. Somewhere out there is a large-sensor MILC. Lens development is constant across 4 platforms. They're probably working on AF and flash sync in stages, to introduce as major new upgrades are released. The various commenters on these threads and in this Forum always put their own priorities first, assuming everyone else shares their views on what Pentax should do. I think they should just keep making high quality cameras and lenses, selling them at decent value prices for the quality and arranging to do so at a profit to the company so they can keep doing it. We should all hope and pray the Japan economy expands strongly and mightily for the next 15 years. I'll gladly buy in the USA whatever they decide will sell in Japan.

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11-10-2014, 10:57 AM	#616
lytrytyr Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,310	Originally posted by kadajawi There won't be significant improvements in the APS-C DSLR sector in terms of stills in the near future. Samsung already have a backlit APS-C sensor in mirrorless, so similar technology in a DSLR shouldn't be very far behind. Experience with the Q cameras shows how these sensors punch well above their weight.

11-10-2014, 11:21 AM	#617
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by lytrytyr Samsung already have a backlit APS-C sensor in mirrorless, so similar technology in a DSLR shouldn't be very far behind. Experience with the Q cameras shows how these sensors punch well above their weight. Samsung won't be interested in selling that sensor to Pentax. And when Sony manages to put the tech in their sensors, they too might want to keep that advantage to themselves. In any case it's not Pentax achievement if they get to use the sensor. It doesn't mean they have to develop something...

11-10-2014, 01:56 PM	#619
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	SR noise does not have to be filtered. Those who care about audio will record externally, those who don't won't notice. They can put in a warning that audio might be affected by the SR. That's all. AF will come with the sensor if they go mirrorless, so no need to work on that. Flash sync doesn't bother me at the moment, but they really should catch up. Nikon is getting decent video out of the latest Milbeaut and Sony (?) sensors, though it is hardly class leading. But I'd be fine with D5300 video quality, + focus peaking during video, + SR and all of that inside the K-3 body. I do have wishes for stills, especially to make use of the SR in an easy way... I want bracketing! If possible an API that allows us to program and remote control our camera.

11-10-2014, 02:29 PM	#620
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by lytrytyr Samsung already have a backlit APS-C sensor in mirrorless, so similar technology in a DSLR shouldn't be very far behind. Experience with the Q cameras shows how these sensors punch well above their weight. I've been expecting mirror-less to take over the APS-C world, but the data I've seen indicates that any change in market share has been rather slow over the past few years. I still believe it will happen, but not right now, so Pentax has time to develop the technology. If I Recall Correctly, Canon used their Rebel line to try out some of the technology that showed up in their EOS-M camera; Pentax could do something similar with a K-50 successor, assuming that such a camera is somewhere in the near-future. In the meantime, I believe they should add an EVF, perhaps an optional variant, to the Q-line, because the evidence seems to be that Asian markets will buy a mirror-less camera sans EVF, but that seems to be a really tough task in the US and Europe.

11-10-2014, 03:15 PM	#621
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by reh321 I've been expecting mirror-less to take over the APS-C world, but the data I've seen indicates that any change in market share has been rather slow over the past few years. I still believe it will happen, but not right now, so Pentax has time to develop the technology. If I Recall Correctly, Canon used their Rebel line to try out some of the technology that showed up in their EOS-M camera; Pentax could do something similar with a K-50 successor, assuming that such a camera is somewhere in the near-future. In the meantime, I believe they should add an EVF, perhaps an optional variant, to the Q-line, because the evidence seems to be that Asian markets will buy a mirror-less camera sans EVF, but that seems to be a really tough task in the US and Europe. But a Q with an EVF will become a rather ungainly thing, and lose it's size advantage.

11-10-2014, 03:24 PM	#622
Clothears Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canterbury Posts: 170	Originally posted by reh321 In the meantime, I believe they should add an EVF, perhaps an optional variant, to the Q-line, because the evidence seems to be that Asian markets will buy a mirror-less camera sans EVF, but that seems to be a really tough task in the US and Europe. Well I wouldn't buy a mirrorless with no viewfinder (like the K-01). It should either have an OVF, with an overlay to show shooting data, or an EVF with a high refresh rate and focus peaking in the viewfinder. Since I wear glasses these days, the rear screen isn't much use without them, while with them, I can't see into the VF properly.

11-10-2014, 03:29 PM	#623
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by kadajawi But a Q with an EVF will become a rather ungainly thing, and lose it's size advantage. The serious competitors in the US and Europe have EVF available, either built-in or add-on. The ones that have gotten very low market share in the US and Europe (like Q and EOS-M) have not had EVF available. I'm convinced they could rearrange the body to add EVF with only a small change in the overall size ... or they could make an add-on like the already available, but seriously over-priced, OVF unit. In any case, if they have any hope of competing in the mirror-less US/Europe market, they will need an EVF. Otherwise, they are wasting their time here and might as well withdraw to Asia, as Canon seems to have done.

11-10-2014, 03:39 PM	#624
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by reh321 The serious competitors in the US and Europe have EVF available, either built-in or add-on. The ones that have gotten very low market share in the US and Europe (like Q and EOS-M) have not had EVF available. I'm convinced they could rearrange the body to add EVF with only a small change in the overall size ... or they could make an add-on like the already available, but seriously over-priced, OVF unit. In any case, if they have any hope of competing in the mirror-less US/Europe market, they will need an EVF. Otherwise, they are wasting their time here and might as well withdraw to Asia, as Canon seems to have done. There are more reasons why the Q is a failure in Europe and the US. "We" want big sensors, and not the smallest camera there is. For Europe it should at least be mFT, better APS-C or FF. And then an EVF is not such a big problem.

11-10-2014, 04:27 PM	#625
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by kadajawi There are more reasons why the Q is a failure in Europe and the US. "We" want big sensors, and not the smallest camera there is. For Europe it should at least be mFT, better APS-C or FF. And then an EVF is not such a big problem. I am a regular at another discussion forum where photographers using all brands congregate. I've been there just five months, but I've learned a lot about photography - and photographers - during that time. I can tell you with absolute certainty that few serious photographers will have anything to do with a camera that does not provide a viewfinder. In the words of one of them, "Using an LCD outside is worse than point-and-shoot; it is hope-and-shoot". And I would present the following facts to substantiate my statement that lack of EVF is a deal-breaker as far as US / Europe is concerned: (1) The Canon SX-60 was received with great joy. It's sensor is 1/2.3, the same as Q and smaller than Q7, but it does have an EVF. I believe that attaching a legacy zoom lens to a Q7 would address many of the same needs but provide better image quality. (2) The EOS-M was a dismal failure in US / Europe, and Canon didn't even bother to introduce the EOS-M2 here. The EOS-M family has an APS-C sensor, basically exactly the same package as used on the T5i, but it has no EVF. Same company; the camera with smaller sensor but EVF is a big success, while the camera with a larger sensor but no viewfinder is a big flop.

11-10-2014, 04:35 PM	#626
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Fair enough, still I doubt even a EVF Q would have success. And it is not like the SX60 was a big success, right? Haven't heard anything about it anyway. LX100, RX100 though... (and the RX100 doesn't have an EVF).

11-10-2014, 06:12 PM	#627
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by kadajawi Fair enough, still I doubt even a EVF Q would have success. And it is not like the SX60 was a big success, right? Haven't heard anything about it anyway. LX100, RX100 though... (and the RX100 doesn't have an EVF). Actually, I've already seen several threads from excited new SX-60 owners who can't wait to show off their new pictures. I don't know how that translates into actual shipments, of course.

11-10-2014, 06:42 PM	#628
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by kadajawi Fair enough, still I doubt even a EVF Q would have success. And it is not like the SX60 was a big success, right? Haven't heard anything about it anyway. LX100, RX100 though... (and the RX100 doesn't have an EVF). If Ricoh was going to experiment with EVF technology Q would be the line to do it on. They often experiment with a single-issue body, such as the K-01 (focus peaking, internal technology, effectively LiveView), MX-1 (hinged LCD), built-in Wi-Fi (WG-30), and not always on top-of-the-line cameras. The X-S1 bodies may become a test platform line.

11-10-2014, 07:12 PM	#629
Mikesul Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 7,594	Originally posted by monochrome If Ricoh was going to experiment with EVF technology Q would be the line to do it on. They often experiment with a single-issue body, such as the K-01 (focus peaking, internal technology, effectively LiveView), MX-1 (hinged LCD), built-in Wi-Fi (WG-30), and not always on top-of-the-line cameras. The X-S1 bodies may become a test platform line. This is a very reasonable suggestions. They could release a possibly risky camera and test the new features without risking their main line reputation or sales.

11-10-2014, 07:52 PM	#630
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,821	Originally posted by monochrome If Ricoh was going to experiment with EVF technology Q would be the line to do it on. They often experiment with a single-issue body, such as the K-01 (focus peaking, internal technology, effectively LiveView), MX-1 (hinged LCD), built-in Wi-Fi (WG-30), and not always on top-of-the-line cameras. The X-S1 bodies may become a test platform line. I don't know how much need there is to experiment with an EVF. It's just a case of deciding to do it and sourcing the screen from Epson or Sony. Ricoh has had an EVF module for their GX and GXR cameras in the past. I think Pentax rejected EVFs the Q and K-01 for different reasons. In the Q's case it would make it too large and more expensive. I doesn't mean they won't have an additional model with EVF at some point. In the case of the K-01, they probably felt that if they added a viewfinder to a K-mount camera, it might as well be an optical one. The K-01 with a viewfinder was the K-30. The tilting screen is also easy enough to implement, but they just haven't decided to do it. Perhaps the weather sealing issue was part of the reason. Perhaps they didn't see the demand for it. The interesting thing is that in the Photokina interview, questions about these features got a kind of "knowing smile" response. I think we'll see both in the near future.