Pentax forum questions for Ricoh at Photokina

thibs · 08-17-2014, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

KAF3 is already in use (used on lenses with AF-motor and no screw drive).

I believe they would have to design two new versions of the k-mount to implement fully electronic mount on lenses, one for the camera and one for the lens. The new version of the mount on the camera would have include everything in the KAF2 mount + support lenses with fully electronic mount. They would still need full support for KAF2 and KAF3 lenses, so screw-drive and mechanical aperture control will still have to be included in cameras.

The version of the mount on lenses will have to remove all moving mechanics in the mount and add support for fully electronic control. So KAF4 for the camera and KAF5 for lenses. But I doubt that KAF5 lenses would be supported by older cameras (KAF2 and earlier).

New lenses certainly would not work on older cameras (which are already impacted by the absence of aperture ring anyway, sadly) but I'm not certain a new lens mount is required (if only for literature) . After all, there's a digital pin already, it may be able to transmit more than it already does (it does more now than in did in Z/MZ serie bodies already). On the body, well... if digital pin is sufficient, same thing but obviously the body should detect if there's a new lens and not actuate the mechanical linkage etc...
Same thing as now: the body does not actuate the screwdrive AF if there's an SDM lens. Rather simple to implement.

Oh, btw, a motor of some sort should be embedded in each lens meaning lenses would be even bigger. So for those who wants all modern lenses à la Canon, keep in mind that:
* AF in the body takes places (and breaks more easily)
* In lens SR takes place and more optical elements (price)
* In lens aperture control takes place.

Don't moan because Pentax lenses would be big... (but fully modern and supposedly better performing, indeed).

RonHendriks1966 · 08-17-2014, 02:04 AM

Oh sorry, I mist the right number on the mount.

Originally posted by Fogel70

KAF3 is already in use (used on lenses with AF-motor and no screw drive).

I believe they would have to design two new versions of the k-mount to implement fully electronic mount on lenses, one for the camera and one for the lens. The new version of the mount on the camera would have include everything in the KAF2 mount + support lenses with fully electronic mount. They would still need full support for KAF2 and KAF3 lenses, so screw-drive and mechanical aperture control will still have to be included in cameras.

The version of the mount on lenses will have to remove all moving mechanics in the mount and add support for fully electronic control. So KAF4 for the camera and KAF5 for lenses. But I doubt that KAF5 lenses would be supported by older cameras (KAF2 and earlier).

I wouldn't mind that new lenses wo't be supported by older camera's. That is a matter of time when new camera's replace older ones. As long as old lenses are still supported.

---------- Post added 17-08-14 at 11:07 ----------

Originally posted by thibs

Oh, btw, a motor of some sort should be embedded in each lens meaning lenses would be even bigger. So for those who wants all modern lenses à la Canon, keep in mind that:
* AF in the body takes places (and breaks more easily)
* In lens SR takes place and more optical elements (price)
* In lens aperture control takes place.

Don't moan because Pentax lenses would be big... (but fully modern and supposedly better performing, indeed).

Oh well leaving screwmount for new lenses is something I wouldn't mind. Keeping the inbody SR is an important one. So lenses don't grow that big, since they don't need the optical stabilisation inside.

Fogel70 · 08-17-2014, 02:53 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

I wouldn't mind that new lenses wo't be supported by older camera's. That is a matter of time when new camera's replace older ones. As long as old lenses are still supported.

But it's a reason why Pentax hesitates doing this. It will make another hole in the compatibility between lenses and cameras. And sales on the new generation lenses would be very limited at the beginning, as few cameras will support them. It will probably take at least 5 years before they are available for a large majority of users.

If new lenses are released at the end of the year, with a "K-3 Super" to support them. There would probably be some upset users that feel they have been "cheated".

JimmyDranox · 08-17-2014, 03:04 AM

IMO, there is no need for a new mount. There is a big need of new lenses, to cover the holes in Pentax line, holes that until now are covered by Sigma and Tamron lenses.

wed7 · 08-17-2014, 04:07 AM

Pentax users have been cheated for the longest time.

Doundounba · 08-17-2014, 05:14 AM

What matters is not what they say, it's what they launch and/or officially announce. (I'll read the interview anyway, should PF get one, but really... show me the products!)

thibs · 08-17-2014, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

IMO, there is no need for a new mount. There is a big need of new lenses, to cover the holes in Pentax line, holes that until now are covered by Sigma and Tamron lenses.

Agreed 100%

---------- Post added 17-08-14 at 13:56 ----------

Originally posted by Fogel70

If new lenses are released at the end of the year, with a "K-3 Super" to support them. There would probably be some upset users that feel they have been "cheated".

Well, Pentax and Ricoh expressed themslves that compatibility was important.
If you buy into a system with that in mind and it breaks later, I'd be pretty pissed off, for good reasons.

The compatibility is sufficiently broken as it is now. Somehow, having to buy Samyang lens to get an aperture ring has something ironic.
I understand why, but somehow, this is wrong. That and the missing aperture simulator in the bodies.

RonHendriks1966 · 08-17-2014, 05:59 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

But it's a reason why Pentax hesitates doing this. It will make another hole in the compatibility between lenses and cameras. And sales on the new generation lenses would be very limited at the beginning, as few cameras will support them. It will probably take at least 5 years before they are available for a large majority of users.

If new lenses are released at the end of the year, with a "K-3 Super" to support them. There would probably be some upset users that feel they have been "cheated".

Well start with the FF, some FF lenses, K-3 II and K-70/K-700 and there you have a full new line of camera's supporting the new mount.Don't be afraid for change in live.

JimmyDranox · 08-17-2014, 06:26 AM

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

Well start with the FF, some FF lenses, K-3 II and K-70/K-700 and there you have a full new line of camera's supporting the new mount.Don't be afraid for change in live.

Ron, what are you talking about? Did you know something? Or is just a guess?

Kunzite · 08-17-2014, 06:51 AM

He's simply saying how they could change the mount; no information about Pentax actually doing it (or launching a FF) is involved.

JimmyDranox · 08-17-2014, 07:06 AM

When Canon is coming wirh a new multilayer dual pixel sensor, when Sony has already three FF,and the fourth is on the way,, and others are making a lot of steps to new and innovative product, a change of the mount will be a one way ticket to other, more dynamic makers for many Pentax users.

mee · 08-17-2014, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

When Canon is coming wirh a new multilayer dual pixel sensor, when Sony has already three FF,and the fourth is on the way,, and others are making a lot of steps to new and innovative product, a change of the mount will be a one way ticket to other, more dynamic makers for many Pentax users.

I think he meant a revision of the K mount and not an entirely different mount.

Kunzite · 08-17-2014, 07:46 AM

Well, it's not exactly about a new mount but K-mount with electronic aperture control - and even this, I'm not sure if it's really necessary (perhaps for video?). It wouldn't be much different than the introduction of SDM lenses, except probably the lack of dual electronic+mechanical linkage aperture control lenses.
It won't be done without a very good reason, and then only in a way which would affect us the least.

**GlassJunkie** · 08-17-2014, 07:49 AM

I'm a little slow.... What needs from a technical point of view are missing with the existing K mount? What process, mechanical, electro-mechanical, or electronic is Pentax missing? I don't follow SONY or the others much (other than quality of output and glass quality). Is there a better exposure mode, lens usability issue, better optical performance available by changing the KAF2/3?

I guess I am asking to ascertain if the "change ideas" are video based, or something that could make picture-taking better? Is there a better "mousetrap"?

JimmyDranox · 08-17-2014, 08:10 AM

I think (hope) that Ron is talking only theoretically about a mount change.

As I said before, IMO, Pentax don't need a new mount, but new lenses. A lot of them. And new cameras. And better, a new strategy, more dynamic, even aggressive, in developing new product. Now, there are more than 3 years since Ricoh bought Pentax, and Ricoh is a very powerful enterprise. So, lack of money, integrations, and other reasons, can no longer be a serious problem. The only problem can be the managing vision. But, I am still optimistic. We have a month until Photokina, and we will see if there is a change, not of the mount, but of their attitude.

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08-17-2014, 01:47 AM	#121
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Fogel70 KAF3 is already in use (used on lenses with AF-motor and no screw drive). I believe they would have to design two new versions of the k-mount to implement fully electronic mount on lenses, one for the camera and one for the lens. The new version of the mount on the camera would have include everything in the KAF2 mount + support lenses with fully electronic mount. They would still need full support for KAF2 and KAF3 lenses, so screw-drive and mechanical aperture control will still have to be included in cameras. The version of the mount on lenses will have to remove all moving mechanics in the mount and add support for fully electronic control. So KAF4 for the camera and KAF5 for lenses. But I doubt that KAF5 lenses would be supported by older cameras (KAF2 and earlier). New lenses certainly would not work on older cameras (which are already impacted by the absence of aperture ring anyway, sadly) but I'm not certain a new lens mount is required (if only for literature) . After all, there's a digital pin already, it may be able to transmit more than it already does (it does more now than in did in Z/MZ serie bodies already). On the body, well... if digital pin is sufficient, same thing but obviously the body should detect if there's a new lens and not actuate the mechanical linkage etc... Same thing as now: the body does not actuate the screwdrive AF if there's an SDM lens. Rather simple to implement. Oh, btw, a motor of some sort should be embedded in each lens meaning lenses would be even bigger. So for those who wants all modern lenses à la Canon, keep in mind that: * AF in the body takes places (and breaks more easily) * In lens SR takes place and more optical elements (price) * In lens aperture control takes place. Don't moan because Pentax lenses would be big... (but fully modern and supposedly better performing, indeed).

08-17-2014, 02:04 AM	#122
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Oh sorry, I mist the right number on the mount. Originally posted by Fogel70 KAF3 is already in use (used on lenses with AF-motor and no screw drive). I believe they would have to design two new versions of the k-mount to implement fully electronic mount on lenses, one for the camera and one for the lens. The new version of the mount on the camera would have include everything in the KAF2 mount + support lenses with fully electronic mount. They would still need full support for KAF2 and KAF3 lenses, so screw-drive and mechanical aperture control will still have to be included in cameras. The version of the mount on lenses will have to remove all moving mechanics in the mount and add support for fully electronic control. So KAF4 for the camera and KAF5 for lenses. But I doubt that KAF5 lenses would be supported by older cameras (KAF2 and earlier). I wouldn't mind that new lenses wo't be supported by older camera's. That is a matter of time when new camera's replace older ones. As long as old lenses are still supported. ---------- Post added 17-08-14 at 11:07 ---------- Originally posted by thibs Oh, btw, a motor of some sort should be embedded in each lens meaning lenses would be even bigger. So for those who wants all modern lenses à la Canon, keep in mind that: * AF in the body takes places (and breaks more easily) * In lens SR takes place and more optical elements (price) * In lens aperture control takes place. Don't moan because Pentax lenses would be big... (but fully modern and supposedly better performing, indeed). Oh well leaving screwmount for new lenses is something I wouldn't mind. Keeping the inbody SR is an important one. So lenses don't grow that big, since they don't need the optical stabilisation inside.

08-17-2014, 02:53 AM	#123
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 I wouldn't mind that new lenses wo't be supported by older camera's. That is a matter of time when new camera's replace older ones. As long as old lenses are still supported. But it's a reason why Pentax hesitates doing this. It will make another hole in the compatibility between lenses and cameras. And sales on the new generation lenses would be very limited at the beginning, as few cameras will support them. It will probably take at least 5 years before they are available for a large majority of users. If new lenses are released at the end of the year, with a "K-3 Super" to support them. There would probably be some upset users that feel they have been "cheated".

08-17-2014, 03:04 AM	#124
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632	IMO, there is no need for a new mount. There is a big need of new lenses, to cover the holes in Pentax line, holes that until now are covered by Sigma and Tamron lenses.

08-17-2014, 04:07 AM	#125
wed7 Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 1,421	Pentax users have been cheated for the longest time.

08-17-2014, 05:14 AM	#126
Doundounba Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Montréal QC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,351	What matters is not what they say, it's what they launch and/or officially announce. (I'll read the interview anyway, should PF get one, but really... show me the products!)

08-17-2014, 05:53 AM	#127
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by JimmyDranox IMO, there is no need for a new mount. There is a big need of new lenses, to cover the holes in Pentax line, holes that until now are covered by Sigma and Tamron lenses. Agreed 100% ---------- Post added 17-08-14 at 13:56 ---------- Originally posted by Fogel70 If new lenses are released at the end of the year, with a "K-3 Super" to support them. There would probably be some upset users that feel they have been "cheated". Well, Pentax and Ricoh expressed themslves that compatibility was important. If you buy into a system with that in mind and it breaks later, I'd be pretty pissed off, for good reasons. The compatibility is sufficiently broken as it is now. Somehow, having to buy Samyang lens to get an aperture ring has something ironic. I understand why, but somehow, this is wrong. That and the missing aperture simulator in the bodies.

08-17-2014, 05:59 AM	#128
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Fogel70 But it's a reason why Pentax hesitates doing this. It will make another hole in the compatibility between lenses and cameras. And sales on the new generation lenses would be very limited at the beginning, as few cameras will support them. It will probably take at least 5 years before they are available for a large majority of users. If new lenses are released at the end of the year, with a "K-3 Super" to support them. There would probably be some upset users that feel they have been "cheated". Well start with the FF, some FF lenses, K-3 II and K-70/K-700 and there you have a full new line of camera's supporting the new mount.Don't be afraid for change in live.

08-17-2014, 06:26 AM	#129
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632	Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 Well start with the FF, some FF lenses, K-3 II and K-70/K-700 and there you have a full new line of camera's supporting the new mount.Don't be afraid for change in live. Ron, what are you talking about? Did you know something? Or is just a guess?

08-17-2014, 06:51 AM	#130
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	He's simply saying how they could change the mount; no information about Pentax actually doing it (or launching a FF) is involved.

08-17-2014, 07:06 AM	#131
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632	When Canon is coming wirh a new multilayer dual pixel sensor, when Sony has already three FF,and the fourth is on the way,, and others are making a lot of steps to new and innovative product, a change of the mount will be a one way ticket to other, more dynamic makers for many Pentax users.

08-17-2014, 07:32 AM	#132
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by JimmyDranox When Canon is coming wirh a new multilayer dual pixel sensor, when Sony has already three FF,and the fourth is on the way,, and others are making a lot of steps to new and innovative product, a change of the mount will be a one way ticket to other, more dynamic makers for many Pentax users. I think he meant a revision of the K mount and not an entirely different mount.

08-17-2014, 07:46 AM	#133
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Well, it's not exactly about a new mount but K-mount with electronic aperture control - and even this, I'm not sure if it's really necessary (perhaps for video?). It wouldn't be much different than the introduction of SDM lenses, except probably the lack of dual electronic+mechanical linkage aperture control lenses. It won't be done without a very good reason, and then only in a way which would affect us the least.

08-17-2014, 07:49 AM	#134
GlassJunkie Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: St Petersburg Photos: Albums Posts: 402	I'm a little slow.... What needs from a technical point of view are missing with the existing K mount? What process, mechanical, electro-mechanical, or electronic is Pentax missing? I don't follow SONY or the others much (other than quality of output and glass quality). Is there a better exposure mode, lens usability issue, better optical performance available by changing the KAF2/3? I guess I am asking to ascertain if the "change ideas" are video based, or something that could make picture-taking better? Is there a better "mousetrap"?

08-17-2014, 08:10 AM	#135
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632	I think (hope) that Ron is talking only theoretically about a mount change. As I said before, IMO, Pentax don't need a new mount, but new lenses. A lot of them. And new cameras. And better, a new strategy, more dynamic, even aggressive, in developing new product. Now, there are more than 3 years since Ricoh bought Pentax, and Ricoh is a very powerful enterprise. So, lack of money, integrations, and other reasons, can no longer be a serious problem. The only problem can be the managing vision. But, I am still optimistic. We have a month until Photokina, and we will see if there is a change, not of the mount, but of their attitude.