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10-06-2014, 12:11 AM   #1711
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He was talking about the new (and silly) Metro interface, right? But that's not your only option. You can even get your start menu back, with the help of a third-party software.
Anyway, it was a bad move, and they tried to force it on us.

10-06-2014, 01:12 AM   #1712
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote

The answer was no from the rep.
Ahem, he was wrong.

You may have been looking at the touch interface and the phone style apps (the one you would use on a tablet) instead of the traditional desktop (which has heaps of keyboard shortcuts and mouse gestures for a traditionalist like me). :-)

Last edited by clackers; 10-06-2014 at 01:19 AM.
10-06-2014, 05:44 AM   #1713
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Ahem, he was wrong.

You may have been looking at the touch interface and the phone style apps (the one you would use on a tablet) instead of the traditional desktop (which has heaps of keyboard shortcuts and mouse gestures for a traditionalist like me). :-)
Indeed but Win8 is still laughable. Not so much in its form (I still think that metro apps on a classic form PC is very stupid) but the fact that they forced the user into it.
Specially knowing the businesses would never ever follow them. We may still end with such an interface but forcing it in the best way to get your customers to tell you (you being M$ here) to "go forth and multiply" (I love that quote).
10-06-2014, 07:55 AM   #1714
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The vast majority of the Window 8 hate comes from people who never used it. The things that are "wrong" with it -- start screen too jarring, too much emphasis in Metro apps for desktop machines, low discoverability of hot corners, etc. -- are exactly the same ones they got negative feedback on during the beta and preview cycle. Sinofsky insisted he was right though and the typical low-tech user would love it. If anything, they hate it more! Well, he's fired ("seeking new opportunities"), some things got fixed in 8.1 and the rest of the things people hate are getting fixed in 10.


The underlying improvements to the OS are fantastic and it's rock solid stable. Speaking as a retired programmer and project manager, the sheer amount of added code for the tablet interface plus all the refactoring to make it work on older hardware while booting and running faster just makes me tired to contemplate. Everyone complains about the Start Menu, but no one complains that it crashes or doesn't work with their hardware. Big kudos to that side of the team. Of course no one notices when it goes right except geeks like me.


ElJamoquio - the sales guy didn't have a clue what he was talking about. Unless it was one of the few Windows RT tablets (which is a more like an iPad or a Android tablet), Windows 8 can do everything Windows 7 can do. The desktop is still there. You can even boot straight to it, load up the taskbar with your shortcuts and never even see Metro unless you are looking for an app you don't have a shortcut to.

10-06-2014, 08:43 AM   #1715
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I wouldn't know, I refused to buy it or allow it in the office. Rumor has it that they are now skipping '9' and going to '10' which makes things even harder as I have never bought an even numbered version of Windows.
The reason for MS skipping "Windows 9" is that some software detects older versions of Windows (95 & 98) as "Windows 9x", so MS is attempting to circumvent any confusion.
10-06-2014, 08:47 AM   #1716
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To keep on topic: the comparison with Win 8 and the K-S1 is amazing. Lots of new, quirky interface things on the K-S1 that make traditionalists quite upset. But obviously Ricoh is much smarter than Microsoft as they are not forcing those horrible changes on all of us, just on the K-S1. By having both new and traditional styles available users can make a choice! Unlike the horrible, draconian change forced onto the world by Microsoft.
10-06-2014, 09:02 AM   #1717
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
To keep on topic: the comparison with Win 8 and the K-S1 is amazing. Lots of new, quirky interface things on the K-S1 that make traditionalists quite upset. But obviously Ricoh is much smarter than Microsoft as they are not forcing those horrible changes on all of us, just on the K-S1. By having both new and traditional styles available users can make a choice! Unlike the horrible, draconian change forced onto the world by Microsoft.
However, traditionalists resent that Ricoh has wasted even a dime of effort on the K-S1, Q (entire line) and everything not black instead of working diligently on the one thing traditionalists want. ;

Last edited by monochrome; 10-06-2014 at 11:42 AM.
10-06-2014, 09:38 AM   #1718
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
To keep on topic: the comparison with Win 8 and the K-S1 is amazing. Lots of new, quirky interface things on the K-S1 that make traditionalists quite upset. But obviously Ricoh is much smarter than Microsoft as they are not forcing those horrible changes on all of us, just on the K-S1. By having both new and traditional styles available users can make a choice! Unlike the horrible, draconian change forced onto the world by Microsoft.
Yuppers. It is nice that Ricoh has (at least) two models of DSLR all the time.

Personally I don't like the K-S1 but it was never meant to be a camera for me. Windows8 was definitely meant for me, and I don't have another choice within Microsoft... and honestly I don't have a choice outside of Microsoft, either. If I don't like 8, I have to wait and hope for a new version that's good before support for Windows7 erodes.

10-06-2014, 09:59 AM   #1719
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Yuppers. It is nice that Ricoh has (at least) two models of DSLR all the time.

Personally I don't like the K-S1 but it was never meant to be a camera for me. Windows8 was definitely meant for me, and I don't have another choice within Microsoft... and honestly I don't have a choice outside of Microsoft, either. If I don't like 8, I have to wait and hope for a new version that's good before support for Windows7 erodes.
10 will do alright. 8 isn't bad inside indeed.
The problem is the form. They got kicked for it (rightly so).
They'll correct it. It's fine (for me).

Note that Apple is doing crap too but at least it takes a couple revisions.
10-06-2014, 10:49 AM   #1720
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
10 will do alright. 8 isn't bad inside indeed.
All reports I've read praise the internals. The GUI is either loved or hated. The issue for many simply being the change was forced without (apparent) choice. Our last computer upgrades came after Win 8 was out and I had to fight to get machines with Win 7 on them. Once upon a time I was first in with anything new, now I guess I am a 'traditionalist' which might be a code word for "old, ossified, stuck in the past, geezer". Terrible to get old and lose the delight in trying anything new just because it was new.

I remember looking at the first Amiga computer, I think at Sears, with a bunch of other kids. We spent an hour trying to learn what it did, sales staff had no idea, no manual, no instructions, just click or type something to see what would happen. Now I'm so 'traditionalist' I won't even upgrade to a new Windows.

LEDs on my camera? Gasp!!
10-06-2014, 10:57 AM   #1721
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I honestly think they ARE interested in the US market, but it is very expensive to sell things here. We're demanding consumers - much more so than other places. We want a perfect product every time, a liberal return policy (like, full money back on demand for no reason) and immediately moan and groan if we don't get what we want. We checkbox-feature compare (as taught by Consumer Reports) and are inveterate negotiators. We want as much as we can get for as little as we can pay. We consider these things our God-given rights and dismiss out-of-hand anyone who says our immediate needs or wants aren't the most important thing on earth (count how many replies it takes someone to say I am crazy). We won't take no for an answer and we're always ready to tell a company how it should make its products, price them, distribute them and service them. We are, after all, Americans. Of course companies should do everything to satisfy every customer because, after all, the customer is always right!! (Whoever coined that phrase should be damned to eternity as a salesman in the USA).

Such behaviors, I have heard, are considered terrifically gauche in other parts of the world.

Again. not to say America isn't an important market. Just to say, at this time, it might be too challenging a market for Ricoh to make money in if they give a full-on effort with all the required marketing elements. So they'll gladly make available the major products they have for sale through a select, self-service channel, but they haven't yet gone out of their way to offer the full line with full service. If they really weren't interested in the US they'd just pull out altogether.

I think maintaining a beachhead is a good indicator of their future interest.
I think it is tough from a consumer standpoint too. When there is no local product to pick up and use, the only option is to buy sight unseen from B and H or Amazon. In that sort of a world, you have to have fairly lenient return policies. I feel very differently about product in a brick and mortar store. If I have picked up a camera at a photo store, take it home and shoot a couple hundred shots and then decide that I don't like the way it feels, that's on me and the store has every right either to not take it back or charge a re-stocking fee.
10-06-2014, 11:58 AM   #1722
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think it is tough from a consumer standpoint too. When there is no local product to pick up and use, the only option is to buy sight unseen from B and H or Amazon. In that sort of a world, you have to have fairly lenient return policies. I feel very differently about product in a brick and mortar store. If I have picked up a camera at a photo store, take it home and shoot a couple hundred shots and then decide that I don't like the way it feels, that's on me and the store has every right either to not take it back or charge a re-stocking fee.
Those of us like me (and I could assume you) who have an expectation based on experience and observation of what a Pentax camera will feel like and do are more likely to order online - I imagine - than someone totally new to the brand who might have read some decent reviews. Familiarity is a feature!

I just upgraded all five phones (to the 5s) on my Family Plan without even trying to determine if another provider would save me money or give better service. These plans are so maddeningly complex that I can't compare and contrast them effectively. So I just take my 'lickin and move on. Once every two years I go in the store with $500 cash in my jeans, say I want to lower my monthly charge and get new phones and an hour later I leave the store with $500 cash in my jeans, new phones, a new plan and the same monthly charge. A couple days later I call AT&T bound and determined to undo everything I just did - and they cheerfully re-sell me the plan I just signed up for.

I imagine walking in a camera store to buy an interchangeable lens camera is a similar experience.
10-06-2014, 02:36 PM   #1723
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Windows8 was definitely meant for me, and I don't have another choice within Microsoft...
You'll be fine, EJ.

Windoze is meant for tinkerers like us, the settings are there to be changed by anyone who knows how (I refuse to believe your K-3's menus are as they were out of the box). :-D

For a library kiosk, you could always change a registry setting and the interface at startup could be the web browser instead of the desktop.

Install the free utility Classic Shell and enjoy your improved Windows 7.

Or do nothing at all if your machines have touch screens. :-)

---------- Post added 10-07-14 at 07:42 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

I imagine walking in a camera store to buy an interchangeable lens camera is a similar experience.
Yep, luckily it's a buyer's market. Lots of competing products, all the companies make good cameras.

If a friend comes by with a new Olympus or Panasonic or Canon, my attitude is 'Good on ya, it'll be great.'
10-06-2014, 03:29 PM - 1 Like   #1724
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
They've changed things. When it came out, I asked the rep if you could have powerpoint, word, matlab, and firefox (actually pale moon) all open and visible on the monitor at the same time.

The answer was no from the rep. He showed me how you could scurry things about and have one thing open and another thing kinda-open at the same time.
You have to jump through some big hoops to something so basic as having two Excel windows open at the same time on your screen. It's maddening that they force everything into tabular display.
10-06-2014, 05:44 PM - 1 Like   #1725
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
However, traditionalists resent that Ricoh has wasted even a dime of effort on the K-S1, Q (entire line) and everything not black instead of working diligently on the one thing traditionalists want. ;
Practically speaking, they were working on a few technologies that can be shared across cameras, be it new or old in approach. But we are barely seeing any of their major load of work they are planning. Somebody in 2013 said Pentax Russia revealed the 2014 will be the year when Pentax “will unload tons of stuff.” Nah, it does not happen. Or maybe it did, but what was it? Q-S1? K-S1?

That is the problem. Maybe they plan “innovative stuff”, but the approach to marketing / launching / announcement / communication is fairly conservative, shy, so the point of their unique innovativeness is lost. No one sees it, and what other manufacturers present looks better because it does communicate better. Louder.

One reason folks expect FF to come — finally — is because them as users will then compensate with loud shouts across the Internet for all the fearful whispering Ricoh is able to utter during its announcement.
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