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08-30-2014, 07:14 AM   #1216
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The same points are being repeated over and over in this thread, yet no one is listening...

This seems to be the dumping ground of thoughts.

08-30-2014, 07:24 AM   #1217
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I think this camera is designed to appeal to people who want to move beyond a cell phone. Apple and Samsung have pretty much figured out that user experience.
Exactly. And the people buying this camera aren't getting rid of their iPhones. They will still use it but there must be situations where they wish they had something better - zoomier, megapicklier, ISOier, etc...
08-30-2014, 07:45 AM   #1218
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QuoteOriginally posted by old4570 Quote
DSLR is for enthusiasts... Trying to target non Photography enthusiasts is a waste of time , targeting enthusiasts should be the primary goal .
That means building a camera enthusiasts would want to own ...
That distills it quite well, I think. If you're not an enthusiast, you're not going to invest in a DSLR or MILC.

FWIW, I'm not a complainer. in fact, I think Pentax has done quite well with most of their ILC designs. I don't have a problem with cameras in assorted colors. Some I even find quite attractive. (The red & blue K-30, for instance.) Change is good when it's for a logical reason. Most of the changes made to this new model look like they're at the expense of ergonomics, though. I don't think this an awful design... just not a very good one.

I'm not worried about it, though. Just about every company has a swing-and-a-miss product once in awhile, and my guess is that this is one of them. They'll probably try to flog it for awhile and then it'll be discontinued in a year (or less) and they'll be on to the next thing. What would concern me is if they keep coming up with one goofball design after another until they bankrupt the company.

I think if they could come up with a couple of solid, sensibly designed DSLRs (even in assorted colors) with an articulated screen at a good price, and put them in more stores where people could actually see and touch them, it would be good for them. It makes sense to me that is where they should concentrate their efforts.
08-30-2014, 07:54 AM   #1219
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Exactly. And the people buying this camera aren't getting rid of their iPhones. They will still use it but there must be situations where they wish they had something better - zoomier, megapicklier, ISOier, etc...
They want a camera that make people say, "Oh, you have a camera that takes good pictures".

08-30-2014, 08:09 AM   #1220
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QuoteOriginally posted by old4570 Quote
Trying to target non Photography enthusiasts is a waste of time , targeting enthusiasts should be the primary goal .
That means building a camera enthusiasts would want to own ...
Or building new enthusiasts
Let's think about it: people who might want to get more involved into photography, but are intimidated by DSLRs. At worst, they would stay with their phones. At best, they would choose a MILC or something. Now, there's an alternative - a very capable DSLR with a nice design and friendly interface.
08-30-2014, 08:31 AM   #1221
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True. but based on what others think here, the Q was a swing and a miss. I had one for a minute and it was cool and fun....until my wife took it so much that I never get a chance to use it. For some reason, mostly the Asian market, the Q continues to keep going and evolves, even though it has a P&S sensor and no VF. Sometimes we don't have a clue when we talk here because we, or a lot of the forum group here say "I don't want that, I think it has failed because it did not give me what I want". Those here who can see the logic behind why certain releases are sent out, even thought we would never buy one of them, they need to look past their own wants and think more of what others will like. Entry level shooters are usually new users, most likely put in Auto mode, and get a kit lens and that is it. For those people, Pentax needs to Keep it simple (stupid). Now when these entry level guy or gal take a few more pics and spends more time on composition, DOF, etc....which they are never going to really try to do with a smartphone (Helllo ?.....they spend all of their pics on selfies) they will think that Pentax K-S1 was kinda cool, but I want to move up to the next level, be it the K-50, K-5II(s), K-3 or what ever comes out next. That is when they will look more into what others are talking about here now, the "S1 doesn't do this or that or looks bad" because they are just starting out and don't know what they really want or need. Give them, all a chance to see if they really want to be more into photography that isn't just a snapshot. Once the user does that, they (Pentax) will have them hooked into a system, and that is what we all up end up doing for the most part anyways when we want to take more pics than just snapshots. Smart move by Pentax.

Last edited by JimC1101; 08-30-2014 at 08:39 AM.
08-30-2014, 08:34 AM   #1222
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QuoteOriginally posted by GibbyTheMole Quote
I think if they could come up with a couple of solid, sensibly designed DSLRs (even in assorted colors) with an articulated screen at a good price, and put them in more stores where people could actually see and touch them, it would be good for them. It makes sense to me that is where they should concentrate their efforts.
Yeah, and RIAC has been soooooo successful putting the previous 'good' cameras in more stores where people could actually see and touch them. In St. Louis RIAC just lost their distribution in a 9-store highly profitable chain. The K500 showed up in how many box stores again? Wasn't that the point of the downgrade?

RIAC got nuthin' and Ricoh just doesn't care any more. We better hope and pray a FF Pentax doesn't need American sales to become a reality, because if that is the reality and this is how we respond to Ricoh brand-differentiating ideas they'll pull out of the US altogether.
08-30-2014, 08:53 AM   #1223
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Exactly. And the people buying this camera aren't getting rid of their iPhones. They will still use it but there must be situations where they wish they had something better - zoomier, megapicklier, ISOier, etc...
+1, and nice mecanical K-01 pict

08-30-2014, 09:38 AM - 1 Like   #1224
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
"I don't want that, I think it has failed because it did not give me what I want". Those here who can see the logic behind why certain releases are sent out, even thought we would never buy one of them, they need to look past their own wants and think more of what others will like.
When I was a retail buyer one of the hardest lessons to be learned was that I was NOT buying what I wanted but buying what other people would want. It is very difficult to put yourself into the mind of other shoppers and say "I hate this, but we are sell to the heck out of it." Just trying to say that if we assume the majority of PF posters are 'enthusiasts' and they hate this camera, then I suspect Ricoh is going to "sell the heck out of it". Because this camera is most definitely not for them.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yeah, and RIAC has been soooooo successful putting the previous 'good' cameras in more stores where people could actually see and touch them.
Retailers have limited inventory budget, limited shelf space and limited employee training time. So if you have 3 black cameras on the shelf in three price points and a salesperson comes in with the latest and greatest black Pentax DSLR the story has to be very, very compelling to put another black, boring DSLR on the shelf that employees will have to learn about and then try to sell to customers. Much easier to say, "no" we already have 3 black cameras on the shelf at 3 price points, I do not need another one.

But show them something truly different and striking, with shiny LEDS and a new look and maybe, just maybe they will find a spot on the shelf for it. Ricoh is fighting for shelf space. At this point what the customer wants is immaterial. What retailers with shelf space want is the only thing that matters. I keep hearing Ricoh has no retail presence, which is true. You do not get retail presence by showing the store buyer another 'me too' black DSLR that is not essentially different from the ones already on the shelf. This is a long term battle, and the small wins now are at levels the consumer will never notice.

Just another example of Ricoh breaking the mold, being where the other guys are not.
08-30-2014, 10:00 AM   #1225
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Shelf space?

What % of DSLR sales are at a physical retailer?
What % of beginner DSLR sales are at a physical retailer?
What % of beginner DSLR sales to whoever this-target-market-is are at a physical retailer?


Seems like those %'s are low and getting lower, but I could be wrong. I'm lucky, there's a Pentax retailer in San Jose. The one retailer in San Francisco closed. That's one in the SFBay area, population 8 million or so, and if you live in San Francisco (where perhaps this target market is), you have to drive an hour (if there's no traffic) to get to a retailer.

Who is going to do that when Amazon has such a great return policy?

Ricoh and Pentax have been pushing for physical retail spots lately, and if this camera is a good enough value, they might be able to do it... but so far I haven't seen their effort succeeding in ILC's.
08-30-2014, 11:55 AM   #1226
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Exactly. And the people buying this camera aren't getting rid of their iPhones. They will still use it but there must be situations where they wish they had something better - zoomier, megapicklier, ISOier, etc...
I was in a 2nd-hand store yesterday where a woman was looking at a Lumix p&s. The idea was to get better images than with her iphone, and the salesperson said he'd owned iphones but gave up on their imaging 'prowess' and now had a droid phone. Both of them were cell users seeking better images. Just because R.Pentax used the phrasing they did in the K-s1 announcement did not imply to me that they intended to replicate the iphone experience on a camera body, just that people who come from a different shooting paradigm will be less intimidated by the K-s1 than by a black DSLR bristling with control points. Fair enough, go get 'em - we all win if it works! and if it doesn't they will try again soon. It's their game we just play it (or play it with another company who won't do quite what we ask for either).
08-30-2014, 01:57 PM   #1227
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QuoteOriginally posted by jimr-pdx Quote
Jim R + K-5 + Q -- k17fe, DA40, M85/135 & zooms covering 18-300mm
Wanna stir the pot? Ask Adam to post a K-S1 sig tag.
08-30-2014, 02:16 PM   #1228
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Shelf space?

What % of DSLR sales are at a physical retailer?
What % of beginner DSLR sales are at a physical retailer?
What % of beginner DSLR sales to whoever this-target-market-is are at a physical retailer?


Seems like those %'s are low and getting lower, but I could be wrong. I'm lucky, there's a Pentax retailer in San Jose. The one retailer in San Francisco closed. That's one in the SFBay area, population 8 million or so, and if you live in San Francisco (where perhaps this target market is), you have to drive an hour (if there's no traffic) to get to a retailer.

Who is going to do that when Amazon has such a great return policy?

Ricoh and Pentax have been pushing for physical retail spots lately, and if this camera is a good enough value, they might be able to do it... but so far I haven't seen their effort succeeding in ILC's.
You and I are US-centric. But here, camera stores are vanishing. Most SLRs are probably sold over the internet -- maybe after handling in a big box store. However, in Europe and Asia, there are still camera stores with products that have shelf space. My understanding is that in Japan, Pentax still has a fair amount of availability in photography stores.

But the US is a tough market. A lot of the US is pretty rural and fairly distant from urban areas where camera stores are available. I think the bigger thing is just advertising to get their name out there.
08-30-2014, 02:49 PM   #1229
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You and I are US-centric. But here, camera stores are vanishing. Most SLRs are probably sold over the internet -- maybe after handling in a big box store. However, in Europe and Asia, there are still camera stores with products that have shelf space. My understanding is that in Japan, Pentax still has a fair amount of availability in photography stores.

But the US is a tough market. A lot of the US is pretty rural and fairly distant from urban areas where camera stores are available. I think the bigger thing is just advertising to get their name out there.
I think most are still not sold over the internet. I think B&M still account for the majority of sales.
08-30-2014, 02:50 PM   #1230
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Another issue in the USA is there has been a movement towards fiscal 'efficiency' for years.. people want more bang for their buck. both for consumers and for corporations..

As a result, we have more big box department stores versus a lot of specialty shops outside of larger cities.

If we do get a specialty store, it is more than likely a full electronics store than a camera specific store. Something such as BestBuy or Frys which caters more towards the general consumer and not niche SLR photographers. I mean you might see dSLR cameras in these stores, but it is usually low to mid tier cameras or the m4/3 systems.

In the big box stores it typically is just very low tier (T3 or D3100) and the like. Nikon and Canon only. Oh and a buuuuunch of P+S and bridge cameras.
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