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08-30-2014, 07:22 PM   #1231
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
On a cellphone the front would be the side with the large LCD screen. A hinged LCD on a dSLR might be able to flip 180 degrees back and then around towards the front of the camera (side with the lens on it) so you could see the selfie in progress.

Yes and also Yes.

That is true too. But I don't see how that plays into the current conversation.

Thanks for saving me the trouble of having to answer.

08-30-2014, 07:37 PM   #1232
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
Is this a joke? They don't need them for selfies, as mostly all of them have front facing cameras in addition to their standard outward facing camera.

Selfies on smartphones: you use front facing camera.
Selfies on cameras: you use the flip out/swivel LCD.
It's not a joke. People were using non-swivel LCD cameras (phone cameras included) to take selfies for ages. Solutions were implemented to make it easier, e.g. mirrors and lousy front cameras (lousy cameras for lousy selfies, that's just right); Pentax have LEDs.
The idea that people considers lousy front cameras good enough, but require a live view image for precise composition (which, for cameras, means twisting the LCD each and every time) is... intriguing. Perhaps the only thing they care is to have their faces in the image? Perhaps they would like to just point the cameras to themselves and shoot?
Any selfie expert around here which can explain?
08-30-2014, 07:40 PM   #1233
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
On a cellphone the front would be the side with the large LCD screen.
I've always thought of that side as the back - the front faces away from me. Like the LCD and lens of a camera.
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
A hinged LCD on a dSLR might be able to flip 180 degrees back and then around towards the front of the camera (side with the lens on it) so you could see the selfie in progress.
I must be truly old and benighted.

I just can't get my mind around the idea that a person who is in possession of a cellphone (with which to post something to the Internet) that has a camera utility embedded would go to all the trouble and steps necessary to make and transfer a selfie taken with a dSLR when all he has to do is open Instagram on the cellphone. A hinged LCD for that use just seems an engineering exercise in search of a use. A cellphone is simply a better tool for a selfie.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yes and also Yes.

That is true too. But I don't see how that plays into the current conversation.
It plays in this way - I don't think rational people take arms-length 'selfies' with dSLR's.
08-30-2014, 07:49 PM   #1234
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It plays in this way - I don't think rational people take arms-length 'selfies' with dSLR's.
A rational person would realize that they are in possession of a camera capable of being mounted on a tripod (or gorillapod), and which possesses both a self-timer and a remote shutter release. And that they are most likely in possession of a cell phone with a crappy camera that is only useful for taking arm length selfies, or pictures of food that no one wants to see.

Oh, to be living in 1839. When you could set up the camera, open the shutter, run into the frame, sit for a minute, then run out of the frame and close the shutter...

08-30-2014, 07:59 PM   #1235
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
A rational person would realize that they are in possession of a camera capable of being mounted on a tripod (or gorillapod), and which possesses both a self-timer and a remote shutter release. And that they are most likely in possession of a cell phone with a crappy camera that is only useful for taking arm length selfies, or pictures of food that no one wants to see.

Oh, to be living in 1839. When you could set up the camera, open the shutter, run into the frame, sit for a minute, then run out of the frame and close the shutter...
The null hypothesis in this entire damned argument (I mean the total of the K-S1 discussion) is 'people's opinions on the K-S1 have nothing to do with rational thought'.
08-30-2014, 07:59 PM   #1236
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I've always thought of that side as the back - the front faces away from me. Like the LCD and lens of a camera.I must be truly old and benighted.
Hah no that is backwards for a phone. Front is the screen side.


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I just can't get my mind around the idea that a person who is in possession of a cellphone (with which to post something to the Internet) that has a camera utility embedded would go to all the trouble and steps necessary to make and transfer a selfie taken with a dSLR when all he has to do is open Instagram on the cellphone. A hinged LCD for that use just seems an engineering exercise in search of a use. A cellphone is simply a better tool for a selfie.
Yes it brings questions to mind. However, I think in this case, the person taking the selfie would already have the dslr out and then decided to take a selfie in middle of other shots. Besides the APS-C sensor in this particular camera is far superior to any smartphone's camera sensor today. So perhaps they are looking to take a high res selfie. Maybe it is the next new thing.


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It plays in this way - I don't think rational people take arms-length 'selfies' with dSLR's.
You should search for "selfie with dslr" and check the results. There are a lot of "irrational" people taking them. Pretty sure Ricoh doesn't care if the people giving them money are irrational or not.. just that they are giving them money.

But I think the camera that is used is the one already out/easiest to access. If it happens to be a dslr well then, that is the one being used. Unless you need it immediately on facebook...

In any case, we can debate this for years on end but it won't matter. We will see how/if the KS-1 sells and go from there.
08-30-2014, 08:06 PM   #1237
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
A rational person would realize that they are in possession of a camera capable of being mounted on a tripod (or gorillapod), and which possesses both a self-timer and a remote shutter release.
Next you'll be saying that small green squares on a distant 3" LCD are harder to see than some LEDs
08-30-2014, 08:06 PM   #1238
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Hah no that is backwards for a phone. Front is the screen side.
Yeah, I just Googled a bit and they called it the 'front-facing camera' when they introduced it. Still seems to face backwards to me - but I guess I'm overruled by numbers.

08-30-2014, 08:10 PM   #1239
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
There were no MILCs that were more compact and cheaper in the 70s.
This one from my shelf was made in 1975 and I believe it qualifies:



My KX film SLR (same year) is larger in every dimension than the Zorki and heavier too. The Zorki was made for export to the West and would have sold (with Jupiter-8 50/2) for $50 USD or less in 1975. The KX, however, has strap lugs. How arcane!


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08-30-2014, 08:11 PM - 1 Like   #1240
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I've always thought of that side as the back - the front faces away from me. Like the LCD and lens of a camera.I must be truly old and benighted.

I just can't get my mind around the idea that a person who is in possession of a cellphone (with which to post something to the Internet) that has a camera utility embedded would go to all the trouble and steps necessary to make and transfer a selfie taken with a dSLR when all he has to do is open Instagram on the cellphone. A hinged LCD for that use just seems an engineering exercise in search of a use. A cellphone is simply a better tool for a selfie.

It plays in this way - I don't think rational people take arms-length 'selfies' with dSLR's.
QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
A rational person would realize that they are in possession of a camera capable of being mounted on a tripod (or gorillapod), and which possesses both a self-timer and a remote shutter release. And that they are most likely in possession of a cell phone with a crappy camera that is only useful for taking arm length selfies, or pictures of food that no one wants to see.

Oh, to be living in 1839. When you could set up the camera, open the shutter, run into the frame, sit for a minute, then run out of the frame and close the shutter...
Unless you're out without a tripod and want to take a photo of yourself/friends on a whim.

I think the biggest issue here is we are not the target market and many here seem to be trying to figure out how to shove the square peg in the round hole and make sense of this camera's usage for their world.
08-30-2014, 08:13 PM   #1241
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Perhaps Pentax should put some 1MP micron-sized camera on the back? (and rename "back" as "front" if that's what makes people happy)
Problem solved: lousy camera (with live view!) available for selfies, and the people taking them would look way cooler with the lens pointing away from them.
08-30-2014, 08:27 PM   #1242
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I think most are still not sold over the internet. I think B&M still account for the majority of sales.
Most cameras bought in this part of the world are picked up at Best Buy and Costco with most of those being fairly uninformed purchases. There are also several stores that are strictly camera stores and they are usually quite busy with people who want to make informed purchases. Those stores will usually price-match B&H or Adorama.


Steve

---------- Post added 08-30-14 at 08:28 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
In the big box stores it typically is just very low tier (T3 or D3100) and the like. Nikon and Canon only.
Unless you stumble into Best Buy where Sony is prominently marketed.


Steve

---------- Post added 08-30-14 at 08:31 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
how does a hinged LCD let you take a picture of yourself from the back of a dSLR?
Depends on the design. Many articulated screens swing out so as to be visible from the front of the camera.


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08-30-2014, 08:53 PM   #1243
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Unless you stumble into Best Buy where Sony is prominently marketed.
Ah I suppose so. However, my usage of the term 'big box' meant Walmart Target or the like

Best buy is a specialty big box (just electronics).
08-30-2014, 09:19 PM - 4 Likes   #1244
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's not a joke. People were using non-swivel LCD cameras (phone cameras included) to take selfies for ages. Solutions were implemented to make it easier, e.g. mirrors and lousy front cameras (lousy cameras for lousy selfies, that's just right); Pentax have LEDs.
The idea that people considers lousy front cameras good enough, but require a live view image for precise composition (which, for cameras, means twisting the LCD each and every time) is... intriguing. Perhaps the only thing they care is to have their faces in the image? Perhaps they would like to just point the cameras to themselves and shoot?
Any selfie expert around here which can explain?
Yes, now that I think about it, the LED's make perfect sense for selfies with the K-S1 and for most situations, reduce or eliminate the need for a flip-twist LCD. Consider the following:

1 - When taking a selfie with a DSLR or mirrorless camera, you do not use the handgrip; you pinch both ends of the camera between you thumb on the bottom plate and your pointer finger on the top plate. So there is no issue of the LEDs being obscured by the photographer's hand when taking selfless.

2 - The key challenge of taking a selfie or being in a group selfie is getting everyone in. In the selfie aesthetic, this is primary. The setting or background in most cases is very much a distant second, since

A) many selfless are taken in places where the background just doesn't matter, i.e., the bathroom.
B) in travel/vacation selfies, the previous or next Instagram/Facebook post is likely to include shots of the setting to establish context. That, along with geotagging, eliminates the need to incorporate context in the selfie.
C) the point of the selfie is to show how much fun the subjects are having/how cute they are/how awesome their life is. This is best achieved with a tight, arm's-length shot.

With these points in mind, the LEDs make it dead simple to make sure that the photo contains the right number of subjects in focus. If, for example, you want three people in the selfie and only two LEDs are lit, you know that you have to reframe your composition until all three LEDs are lit. Likewise, if it is three people and four LEDs are lit, turn around because you are being photobombed! Incoming!

For evidence, I submit the following selfies. These photos were taken by a Nikon 1 V1 and a Pentax Q. As you view, consider the points made above. In all cases, a row of LEDs would have been helpful.







I rest my selfie.
08-30-2014, 09:45 PM   #1245
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As a selfie newbie - thanks for the lesson! You're right, that context does make the LEDs a well-reasoned addition - which will to some minds makes the K-s1 even sillier
Guess most of my selfies are virtual & abstract, i.e. the smilies above..
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