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08-31-2014, 01:53 PM   #1291
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Actually, I do realize it and I reject the argument that this camera should be for selfies. That is something made up here - or by Ricoh USA.

This is a very good mid-range camera with a 100% coverage .95x optical viewfinder. It is built for people who take pictures from the rear of a camera, not the front. Using this for selfies would just be stupid. Adding features that you'd use for selfies would be a waste of cost in a competitive price point. Substituting selfie features for useful features (say the 100% OVF or the metal frame) would change the character of the camera.

Hinged LCD is for : Tripods, low angle or uncomfortable positions and some waist-level.
WiFi is for: - I'm not sure what beyond remote control and maybe production tethering, but certainly not Instagram (and there is an OEM and a third-party optional accessory for those who want to link their camera to a mobile device). There is a far more efficient technology already available for file transfer - take the card out; insert it in your computer USB or card slot.
LED's are for: the same thing a flashing red countdown timer is for. Just a different emulation of the same feature.

I'll concede there are legitimate, photographic uses for a hinged LCD. If it is justified on a 645Z it is justified on every dSLR Pentax makes, but not for selfies. There is no other real, useful reason to add the other features to a Pentax camera. Pentax made a business decision to implement a different solution to the need. If we don't like their decision, we know what to do.
My word - a sensible post, how unusual.

If people want to take selfies or post to social media, they can use a smartphone and live with the low image quality. These are ephemeral images, after all. If I want to take decent pictures to keep, then I don't need a hinged LCD or Wi-Fi. In fact, I don't need live view either, as I'm looking through the viewfinder to frame and focus. And I want an optical viewfinder, so I can focus properly (or see what the camera thinks it's focussing on). Neither do I need a touchscreen, which is going to be really useful on a cold day when I have my gloves on.

What I want is a camera that is relatively simple to use, and which is light.

08-31-2014, 02:05 PM   #1292
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clothears Quote
In what sense do you mean "added a pentaprism"? All Pentaxes I've owned since 1970 have had a pentaprism.
The k-s1 uses the pentaprism from the k3 (which is bigger than those found in the k-5/k-50/k-500). So it is an improvement in that regard.

Compare that to Nikon, and both the D3300 (entry) and D5300 (mid) use pentamirror, with the D7100 (enthusiast) being the cheapest Nikon to use a pentaprism (with .94x magnification, vs .95x found on the k-3/k-s1).

On the canon front, you'll need a 60D to get a pentaprism (95% coverage vs 100% on pentax), and you can only get into the 98% coverage on the 70D, 100% on the 7D.

The K-S1 has a damn fine viewfinder (only bettered by the canon 7D, and full frame)
08-31-2014, 02:12 PM   #1293
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
Gorgeous. What is the lens?
KMZ Jupiter-8 50/2 in M39 (LTM)


Steve
08-31-2014, 02:15 PM   #1294
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QuoteOriginally posted by robthebloke Quote
The k-s1 uses the pentaprism from the k3 (which is bigger than those found in the k-5/k-50/k-500). So it is an improvement in that regard.
Thanks.

QuoteQuote:
The K-S1 has a damn fine viewfinder (only bettered by the canon 7D, and full frame)
Does anyone know what information is available in the viewfinder?

08-31-2014, 02:19 PM   #1295
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Cut it out.

You know you can't Publish without a Browser. You have to access a device that has a browser whether you do it on Stabucks' WiFi or your linked phone or a tablet, with or without an EMEI. All you can do is transfer iamges to another device - that has a web browser.

A FluCard of Eye-Fi is just as good as embedded Wi-Fi.

Good Grief - a FluCard OPERATES in a WEB BROWSER.

They already have a perfect internet-connected photo device for the uses they presently seem to want.
Actually, all the SmartPhones. And tablets.
I don't have the camera any more, but my old Samsung published direct to Facebook (with a rudimentary ability to punch in text), and it most certainly did not have a browser on it.

That said, it was a royal PIA to set up and was only usable with non-passworded public WiFi (or at home, in which case using the USB cord or taking the card out was tremendously faster), which rendered the whole system fairly useless.
08-31-2014, 02:28 PM   #1296
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Cut it out.

You know you can't Publish without a Browser.
I know I can. I have matlab email me when it's done with data. No browser req'd.
08-31-2014, 02:35 PM - 1 Like   #1297
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sagitta Quote
I don't have the camera any more, but my old Samsung published direct to Facebook (with a rudimentary ability to punch in text), and it most certainly did not have a browser on it.

That said, it was a royal PIA to set up and was only usable with non-passworded public WiFi (or at home, in which case using the USB cord or taking the card out was tremendously faster), which rendered the whole system fairly useless.
My Samsung NX20 comes in most handy during family events. If I'm in my yard and take a good photo that a family member wants, I instantly email them right away, so they are not coming after me weeks later because I forgot to send them pics. No need to go inside, leave the family, and disappear for several minutes while I pull out memory cards and upload first. When I'm over someone else's house, they just give me their wifi password and I can send it immediately without having to use their computer or wait until I get home.

Cameras shouldn't take backward steps when better advancements have already been available and utilized.

I'm still wondering if this has HDMI out. Anyone know?
08-31-2014, 02:38 PM   #1298
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QuoteOriginally posted by K-9 Quote
My Samsung NX20 comes in most handy during family events. If I'm in my yard and take a good photo that a family member wants, I instantly email them right away, so they are not coming after me weeks later because I forgot to send them pics. No need to go inside, leave the family, and disappear for several minutes while I pull out memory cards and upload first. When I'm over someone else's house, they just give me their wifi password and I can send it immediately without having to use their computer or wait until I get home.

Cameras shouldn't take backward steps when better advancements have already been available and utilized.

I'm still wondering if this has HDMI out. Anyone know?
I recall someone mentioning seeing the HDMI logo on the grip of the camera. Whether true or not I'm notsure, but it could be worth pixelpeeping the photos to it to check.

08-31-2014, 02:44 PM   #1299
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sagitta Quote
I don't have the camera any more, but my old Samsung published direct to Facebook (with a rudimentary ability to punch in text), and it most certainly did not have a browser on it.

That said, it was a royal PIA to set up and was only usable with non-passworded public WiFi (or at home, in which case using the USB cord or taking the card out was tremendously faster), which rendered the whole system fairly useless.
And it's doubtful it would work anymore. Facebook has a tendency to change their APIs.
08-31-2014, 02:44 PM   #1300
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sagitta Quote
I recall someone mentioning seeing the HDMI logo on the grip of the camera. Whether true or not I'm notsure, but it could be worth pixelpeeping the photos to it to check.
08-31-2014, 03:09 PM   #1301
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QuoteQuote:
No, it isn't. Wifi. Wifi. Wifi. They need wifi and a 'publish' button. No 'embedded' web browser required. How many phones have an 'embedded' web browser? I thought they were all software, myself.
Browsers are software, and even a small publish button will need a web browser to function, and will need constant security patches, protocol updates, etc. It will also need an operating system to handle such boring details as tcp/ip, NAT punch through, etc, which will also need to be routinely patched. You'd better make sure that OS is Linux + gnome/x based though, because otherwise you'll need to write your own OS and GUI, and write/maintain your own browser code (which will need to be kept up to date with the ever changing randomness of Facebook/Flickr/Instagram/snap chat GUIs and protocols).

Should be easy right? You only need all of that for a publish button. If Mozilla or Google can hire a dev team of 1000+ to do it, why can't pentax?

Of course, there are some alternatives that are completely unacceptable.

1. Use that terrible protocol that was designed to transfer files wirelessly between devices, Bluetooth.

2. Add wifi support to your device, and I don't know, make the device act as a html based web server so that other devices can talk to it (using their browser). I don't know, by doing that they could maybe get away without needing an OS, or web browser, or any GUI Libs, or software patches. They could even maybe do cool things like let you change camera settings, and let you take a shot wirelessly.

3. Do the same as 2, but simply pay a 3rd party to add support for you.

They could add a Bluetooth support in a few hundred lines of code, wifi support in maybe 150,000 lines; 3rd party support in zero lines; but a simple publish button would only take 20,000,000 lines of code that would need to be constantly patched.

It beggars belief why Ricoh would choose the 3rd party option over a publish button. It simply defies all logic.

QuoteQuote:
Which is why a facebook DSLR should have wifi.
If you have ever wondered why software engineering is a stressful job, it's because non-technical folk are afflicted with a condition I like to call 'optimism'. You can tell these people a mile off, because they have these catch phrases that always start their sentences, things like:

"Surely it must be easy to..."
"It can't be that hard to..."
"All they need to do is...."

If you find yourself saying those words, you are not an engineer, you are simply afflicted with a bad case of optimism.

QuoteQuote:
The kiddies outnumber you, and you should want THEM to pay for your DSLR obsession.
Most first time buyers of dslr's or milc's I've known, have either just become parents, or are about to embark on a once in a lifetime holiday. Anyone between the age of 18 and 30 are more concerned with earning enough money to pay the rent.

I for one think the k-s1 is a decent camera. The cost is a little high at the moment, but it will fall once the current stock of k50/k500/k5 bodies are sold off in the run up to Christmas. I'll probably pick one up early next year (20mp, no AA, good viewfinder, why the hell not?).

I find it amusing that so many people here are saying "I don't want a stylish camera, I'm not fashion conscious, therefore I won't buy it because it's not my style". The irony.
08-31-2014, 03:14 PM   #1302
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QuoteOriginally posted by robthebloke Quote
Browsers are software, and even a small publish button will need a web browser to function
I think you have a different definition of 'web browser' than is common. When I email from matlab, am I using a 'web browser'? What if I published to facebook or twitter? I was considering the twitter one.

This is simple. The protocol is straightforward. I've never done facebook, and I've never had to worry about the protocol changing in the future, but I'm one person who spent a couple of hours on it.
08-31-2014, 03:42 PM   #1303
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I think you have a different definition of 'web browser' than is common. When I email from matlab, am I using a 'web browser'? What if I published to facebook or twitter? I was considering the twitter one.
Email is easy, so long as you have the software stack provided by the operating system. Try emailing from a spectrum 48k, and tell me if you find it as easy.

If you publish to twitter, Facebook, et al, it's also easy (from windows, Linux, mac, android, that already provide the services you need. But again, try doing it on a commodore amiga 600, and then get back to me).

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
This is simple.
Optimism alert!

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
The protocol is straightforward.
Assuming you are building on top of an operating system that provides NAT punch through, network drivers, and has all the underlying support for https, then I'm sure it is. If you haven't got all if that, where will you be getting it from exactly? Android phones have the luxury of a the Linux kernel, and drivers provided by Samsung, Qualcomm et al. Pentax dslr's do not have that luxury.

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I've never done facebook, and I've never had to worry about the protocol changing in the future, but I'm one person who spent a couple of hours on it.
And you did this in matlab (which is itself a huge software stack). Do it on a game boy, in c, without an underlying software stack or os, and then you'll be in a position to give an accurate time estimate for the work. Until then, this is simply a bad case of optimism.

You are also failing to account for api and protocol changes (and don't try to tell me they never change!). What about future trends? (Kids all use snap chat these days, after Facebook was overrun with parents).

Samsung can do this (they are the biggest phone manufacturer in the world, and as such already have the knowledge and tech in house). Pentax are starting from zero here.

Using flu card was a good engineering decision. It integrates wifi support only as far as the firmware. It gives them future buying power (hey flu card guys, if you charge us more, we can go chat to eye fi!). It's liable to have fewer bugs than in house tech. Hell, most k-s1s and k-3s seem to be bundled with the pentax flu card anyway, so it's not going to be a big deal for most people.

Last edited by robthebloke; 08-31-2014 at 03:49 PM.
08-31-2014, 04:11 PM - 1 Like   #1304
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You know you can't Publish without a Browser.
Ummm, yes, you can publish without a browser (see comments above), but you need some sort of code that acts as a client and is able to talk the computer on the other end. You also need some sort of IP stack and connection (WiFi or wired) to the Internet.


Steve

(...have written many clients over the years...)
08-31-2014, 04:20 PM   #1305
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QuoteOriginally posted by robthebloke Quote
Email is easy, so long as you have the software stack provided by the operating system. Try emailing from a spectrum 48k, and tell me if you find it as easy.

If you publish to twitter, Facebook, et al, it's also easy (from windows, Linux, mac, android, that already provide the services you need. But again, try doing it on a commodore amiga 600, and then get back to me).


Optimism alert!



Assuming you are building on top of an operating system that provides NAT punch through, network drivers, and has all the underlying support for https, then I'm sure it is. If you haven't got all if that, where will you be getting it from exactly? Android phones have the luxury of a the Linux kernel, and drivers provided by Samsung, Qualcomm et al. Pentax dslr's do not have that luxury.



And you did this in matlab (which is itself a huge software stack).

I know. I'm also not a software engineer. I am far, far from a software engineer. And yet it was easy.


QuoteOriginally posted by robthebloke Quote
Do it on a game boy, in c, without an underlying software stack or os, and then you'll be in a position to give an accurate time estimate for the work. Until then, this is simply a bad case of optimism.

It's pessimism. I have no experience programming on any nintendo platform. I'm going to assume that Pentax engineers have programming on Pentax hardware.


QuoteOriginally posted by robthebloke Quote
You are also failing to account for api and protocol changes
How often has facebook API changed in a way that was not backwards compatible? It looks like they had a massive change in 2010 but I'm not sure that it wasn't even backwards compatible then.


Even if it does change every couple of years, so what? Download the firmware automatically with your wifi connection. Ask the user if they want to update the firmware. Something the user is completely familiar with.


We're also far, far away from my claim which was that I could publish to facebook without a browser. I think you agree with me now?
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