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08-31-2014, 04:23 PM   #1306
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The problem I have with the reliance on the Flucard for WiFi on the K-S1 is that it ties WiFi capabilities to the storage.

Imagine I'm on holiday and taking a lot of pictures, some with the remote function. When I fill my memory card and have to change, I lose my Wi-Fi. That's a real pain for the user. It wasn't so bad for the K-3 because there was another slot, but the K-S1 doesn't have that luxury.

The secondary problem is that people like to choose their memory card, to get a faster one or shop around for price. If you want Wi-Fi, you're stuck with whatever Ricoh is selling, at whatever price they are selling it.

08-31-2014, 04:24 PM - 1 Like   #1307
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
you need some sort of code that acts as a client and is able to talk the computer on the other end. You also need some sort of IP stack and connection (WiFi or wired) to the Internet.
So are you suggesting it is possible for Ricoh to implement a 'Publish' button on a dSLR so long as it is within range of a Wi-Fi signal? How would the camera know where to publish (FB, IG, Tweet, MyBlog, Flickr)? How would one add text and location (Oh Wait. We need another feature - onboard site-recognition GPS) and little emoticons - use the LCD? And how would one view all the dialogs and touch keyboards on the LCD?

Seems a lot of horsepower and battery necessary when all you really need is a FluCard and a phone (which is already an excellent device for those functions) pr tablet to do exactly the same thing.

I'd rather they spend the engineering money on the flash sync or something really useful.
08-31-2014, 04:36 PM   #1308
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I'd rather they spend engineering money on stuff I actually want, too.

But if they're building a camera for someone who isn't me, they should optimize the experience for that person.
08-31-2014, 04:38 PM   #1309
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The other way around. Ricoh should make a camera that serves the selfie crowd a little bit better to get them back into the serious camera life. When 90 % of you images are selfies and little crowds of friends for facebook and all those other sites, then it should stand out in that point.
Yes, they should. But not every camera. Especially if I have to pay for useless features when there is a perfectly acceptable accessory.

This is not a selfie camera. RIAC just made that up out of whole cloth. It is a very capable mid-range camera in a differently styled box.

We've killed it as far as the USA is concerned though, so good luck getting anything else we want from Ricoh.

08-31-2014, 04:38 PM   #1310
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I'd rather they spend the engineering money on the flash sync or something really useful.
I agree. WiFi + publish to the Web is sort of a G-whiz feature.


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08-31-2014, 04:49 PM   #1311
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Nah. I'm deleting that.

There are other, better devices for the things you've described.

I concede filling up a FluCard is an annoyance I hadn't considered. Have to think about that one, but I have to ask, if that's going to be an issue why would you shoot with a camera that only has one slot?

Last edited by monochrome; 08-31-2014 at 04:54 PM.
08-31-2014, 05:23 PM - 2 Likes   #1312
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I know. I'm also not a software engineer. I am far, far from a software engineer. And yet it was easy.
Yes. Email protocols are easy. Especially when it has been implemented via an operating system function such as MAPISendMail (which in turn has implemented the protocol on top of the windows sockets API, which in turn has been written on top of the device driver framework, which itself abstracts the device type [usb, pci, PCI express], behind which sits a device driver provided by the hardware vendor, that ensures the correct electrical signals are passed down the wires, at exactly the correct clock cycle, to make sure the actual network chip you are using works correctly).

If you think all of that is easy, solder a network chip onto a serial or USB bus (on something basic like a spectrum 48k or C64), and re implement the entire software stack on top of it. That is what you are asking pentax to do. You maintain it is easy. I maintain that you are seriously underestimating the amount of work involved.

QuoteQuote:
It's pessimism. I have no experience programming on any nintendo platform.
You are missing my point entirely. It's not that it's a Nintendo platform that is important, it's simply 'a' platform that has no networking support available ...

QuoteQuote:
I'm going to assume that Pentax engineers have programming on Pentax hardware.
Question 1: which pentax cameras have native wifi support?

Question 2: how much experience have pentax engineers gained from their cameras with wifi support?

Question 3: how many pentax engineers have therefore gained experience of implementing the networking protocols (DNS, NAT, http) needed to talk to the internet (let alone Facebook)?

I'm going to hazard a guess: none.

In those cases you either hire talent, or you outsource. Pentax have gone with the latter.

QuoteQuote:
How often has facebook API changed in a way that was not backwards compatible? It looks like they had a massive change in 2010 but I'm not sure that it wasn't even backwards compatible then.
For some reason I keep thinking of the underpants gnomes. You keep ignoring that important middle step where the camera can actually talk beyond the local network switch.

Web based services can and will change. Msn messenger was switched off this week. Whilst it's an extreme example, there are no guarantees that Facebook won't change their protocols in the future.

QuoteQuote:
Even if it does change every couple of years, so what? Download the firmware automatically with your wifi connection. Ask the user if they want to update the firmware. Something the user is completely familiar with.
Question: When did pentax last release a firmware update for the *ist d, k100d, k-m, k-x, k-r, etc?

Answer: long enough ago to make adding Facebook support to firmware a very bad idea. If you want your camera to behave like a phone, buy a phone, or build a phone into it. Don't fill up the firmware with code that is dependent on a 3rd party making sure they never change anything.

Anyway, what about snap chat, Flickr, Dropbox, Msn/gmail storage, Instagram? If you promote one service over another, it's guaranteed you've just backed my space. If you want that stuff, tether your camera to a device that already provides support (eg phone, tablet, laptop). It offsets the support burden from pentax, and let's you use any crazy web service you want (whilst freeing pentax to develop some nice new features that actually help to take better photos)

QuoteQuote:
We're also far, far away from my claim which was that I could publish to facebook without a browser. I think you agree with me now?
No I will not agree with you. The only reliable way to add Facebook support is to provide a browser. At the very least, you will need services that pentax does not have in it's firmware, and who as a company, are unlikely to have in house (unlike Samsung). You keep ignoring that very important point....
08-31-2014, 05:24 PM   #1313
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I'm a wilderness hiker/shooter who will cheerfully be miles away from any access points. The fewer battery drains built into the system the happier I'll be (yes LEDs too, I seldom use face-detect out there). When weather is a wildcard I will take the K-5 with its seals and its larger battery, but in decent weather I can take a K-s1 a few primes plus an extra battery, and be very happy.

08-31-2014, 05:39 PM   #1314
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I concede filling up a FluCard is an annoyance I hadn't considered. Have to think about that one, but I have to ask, if that's going to be an issue why would you shoot with a camera that only has one slot?
I think it's a necessary evil for this iteration of pentax camera.

I used to work for a middleware company deploying our tech to other software products. Whilst work was being undertaken to integrate our tech, we'd bend over backwards to implement any feature the client would ask for at the drop of a hat.

The second that integration reached the point where we knew it would be more hassle for the client to stop using our tech, than to struggle on with it, our response times would drop off somewhat!

By keeping the flu card integration at arms length (it's only going to be communication via firmware to the SD card at this point), pentax still have the option of switching to eye-fi if they want (they probably won't, but it's still leverage to get features they need implemented quickly).

I'd expect the next generation to migrate the hardware from flu into the camera body (unless it all goes badly, and expect a pentax branded eye-fi as another stop gap).
08-31-2014, 06:03 PM   #1315
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QuoteOriginally posted by robthebloke Quote
The only reliable way to add Facebook support is to provide a browser. At the very least, you will need services that pentax does not have in it's firmware, and who as a company, are unlikely to have in house (unlike Samsung). You keep ignoring that very important point....
Uh huh. So a browser is not required.

I bet my old phones on elderly OS's could still post to facebook, too. You don't need to support every new feature.

I'm 100% OK with the capability not being there, I'd prefer Pentax be a serious camera and Canon develop this one-button post anyway.
08-31-2014, 06:22 PM - 1 Like   #1316
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Nah. I'm deleting that.

There are other, better devices for the things you've described.

I concede filling up a FluCard is an annoyance I hadn't considered. Have to think about that one, but I have to ask, if that's going to be an issue why would you shoot with a camera that only has one slot?
I don't mind buying extra SDHC cards for a few bucks but extra FluCards at $100 a pop is borderline insane.
08-31-2014, 08:47 PM   #1317
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

We've killed it as far as the USA is concerned though, so good luck getting anything else we want from Ricoh.
Pentaxians of old are not that loud; they are constant moaners, they are high on demand, but low on spending — no matter what comes, be it what they wanted or not. They commit with words only. So as a purchasing group they are unreliable and a source of loss for the company.

And as I stated some time ago, it is good for Pentax starting care less about them, because in the end, they are a bad bunch to deal with: never happy, seldom open to anything new and the brand must be new in some way.

And with each new day it seems Ricoh Imaging keeps its concerns just contrary to the list of Pentax Forum members requests and demands. And every interview seems to be pointless. Well, maybe it is a good sign after all.
08-31-2014, 08:51 PM   #1318
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
We've killed it as far as the USA is concerned though, so good luck getting anything else we want from Ricoh.
This surprises me. On a scale of 1 - 10, I would have guessed the effect of PF forum chatter on USA sales is somewhere South of 1. Way South. I take it you believe we have much greater influence?
08-31-2014, 09:32 PM   #1319
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
This surprises me. On a scale of 1 - 10, I would have guessed the effect of PF forum chatter on USA sales is somewhere South of 1. Way South. I take it you believe we have much greater influence?
Actually I think the effect of PF forum chatter is quite large. I suspect they monitor this site continuously. And then do exactly the opposite of what is moaned about.
08-31-2014, 09:49 PM   #1320
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I'm sure the forum has some influence on sales. I'm sure many people buying Pentax in the USA are doing so sight unseen from an online retailer (I've never seen Pentax in a store in the US). This probably involves some research which would lead you here. Seeing a predominantly negative view of a camera could turn away a customer. I know when I bought my initial Pentax (K7) it involved a lot of research and this forum was included in that. Had I read a bunch of negative views/reports It would have weighed heavy upon my decision.

Targeting smartphone users is sketchy anyway. Most smartphones come in at 100 dollars or less when you sign on to a contract. This is one of the reasons the point and shoot (at least simple ones) are pretty much dead. This thing essentially costs 7x what an iphone does without a lens. I question how much demand actually exists for that user (young people don't have a lot of money these days). If it really is a untapped market is this truly what they are looking for? Standard DSLR controls exist for a reason, they are time tested and work well.

It's sad we cannot even discuss concerns like this on this forum without people freaking out about pre-killing the product.
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