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09-03-2014, 06:16 AM   #1411
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
This isn't in any of the tradtitional tiers but is marketed towards the younger generations who are new to SLR photography. Even though it has mid-tier specifications it isn't meant to be the tradtiional mid-tier replacement. It is in it's own tier/bracket off from the traditional tiers.
Not sure that quite adds up. The market will decide where it goes so it's out of Ricoh's control? Retailers do like their pigeonholes. Tiers or No Tiers? Sounds like a game show Thing is, it's hard to see how a "conventional" new model in the vein of the K50 would avoid cannibalizing the K-S1's sales, since the new model would likely have superior specifications (WR, dual control wheels, e.g.) but couldn't have a higher price if it were to remain competitive with the conventional offers from Canonikon, like the D5300 at this level anyway. So, in a way, the K-S1 is a bit of a blocker. Maybe it's the East-West thing and the K-S1 isn't particularly intended for North America and Europe. I'm really thinking here of the K-01/K30 thang of a couple of years ago. Once the K30 was out, there was little reason to buy the K-01 except at a significantly reduced price since the K30 did all the K-01 could do and more. So the market for the K-01 duly tanked and the price came right down.

09-03-2014, 06:28 AM   #1412
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Once the K30 was out, there was little reason to buy the K-01 except at a significantly reduced price since the K30 did all the K-01 could do and more. So the market for the K-01 duly tanked and the price came right down.
Despite all the angsty whining about Marc Newson, K30 was actually the biggest argument against K-01.

We shall hear soon, if there's an echo.
09-03-2014, 06:40 AM - 1 Like   #1413
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The market will decide where it goes so it's out of Ricoh's control? Retailers do like their pigeonholes. Tiers or No Tiers?
Sure it adds up. Companies that offer a range of products usually have tiers. So in the internal Pentax scheme, there are tiers. K-500, K-50, K-5II, K-3. You can rank them quite easily, and their prices reflect that. But the K-S1 doesn't fit directly in there, since it has some advantages over the K-5II and some weaknesses against the K-50.
In terms of the consumers, there are also tiers. Amateru/newbie, hobbyist, prosumer, professional. While these are not rigid, and an amateur can certainly afford to buy pro gear or a pro can do his work with amateur tools, there are general tiers where "most" of the consumers can be classified into. But the K-S1 doesn't fall into any of these tries neatly. Rather, it is aiming for a certain demographic. So again it is separate from the typical tier structure.
This is why I keep comparing the K-S1 to the K-01. Its a new product to reach for a new audience, to get some attention. It is probably not meant to be a replacement of any of the current lineup, but an addition.
09-03-2014, 07:02 AM - 2 Likes   #1414
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I don't get it. On one hand you're completely dismissing the K-S1, even stating they won't sell 1/20th of the first month's production, and on the other hand, you're doing... that.
Um, did you totally miss that the name of my business is OZ themed and that most of my business involves taking pics of kids? There's a reason for the fairy tale take on things. It's both a branding thing and a kid thing. FYI, I've worked with kids half my life in one way or another. I'm primarily getting most of my business doing shoots with little kids so far. Kids don't always like having their pics taken. They are often afraid of serious adult looking basic black cameras.

So far they're not nearly so afraid of my flashy red K-30. That's one of the reasons I wanted it actually because I thought it would help a lot with kid shoots. So far, so good. It's been good working with it. The kids all love my K-30 so far and I'll just bet they'll love my ruby "jewels"and glitter caps too. If there's one thing I've learned about working with kids it's that a little glitter and magic is usually a GOOD thing. I've got a big bag of stuffies and other toys I take with me to shoots too. After the shoot they get to pick one. Sometimes I give out stuff like craft gems, stickers, sparkle tiaras, little cars, play dough cans, silly putty....

For an adult what I just did it is silly. But not for me, not with my job. I actually have two sets of caps. One that I did bling, one that I'm not. I doubt too many people would even notice the few body jewels I did use. They're pretty much the same color as the camera. The body decoration is pretty subtle compared to what I did with the caps. If I need to go corporate or something I can just use the plain caps, but I wanted one set that was fun, for use mainly with kids. The basic design of the K-30 is killer. A couple of craft gems and a glitter cap doesn't change that.

When I shoot with kids I actually wear a fun glitter t-shirt or something dumb on my head like one of those bobble head things. It helps. Anything that will them to smile and relax works for me. If they think I'm just another big kid so much the better. They won't be as scared and I'll get better shots. To me the basic design on the K-S1 is just a little weird, a little off putting. I almost wish they had used brighter colors and the crystal finish on them like they did for the K-30. It might have made more sense and looked a bit better than the colors they chose.

09-03-2014, 07:27 AM   #1415
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not sure that quite adds up. The market will decide where it goes so it's out of Ricoh's control? Retailers do like their pigeonholes. Tiers or No Tiers? Sounds like a game show Thing is, it's hard to see how a "conventional" new model in the vein of the K50 would avoid cannibalizing the K-S1's sales, since the new model would likely have superior specifications (WR, dual control wheels, e.g.) but couldn't have a higher price if it were to remain competitive with the conventional offers from Canonikon, like the D5300 at this level anyway. So, in a way, the K-S1 is a bit of a blocker. Maybe it's the East-West thing and the K-S1 isn't particularly intended for North America and Europe. I'm really thinking here of the K-01/K30 thang of a couple of years ago. Once the K30 was out, there was little reason to buy the K-01 except at a significantly reduced price since the K30 did all the K-01 could do and more. So the market for the K-01 duly tanked and the price came right down.
The K-S1/K30 and a lot of the discussion around it reminds me a lot of the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro 13 (the DVD one, not the new retina version). The smaller one is a bit more expensive, which a lot of people thought was crazy. If you start counting the features, it leads you inevitably to the larger cheaper model as offering the best cost performance. But a significant number of customers are more than happy to pay a bit more for a lighter model that compromises on the things they don't care about but retains the things they do. Ricoh may be thinking this way and not see competition between the two models as a problem.

One other thought is that the K50 might not get a direct successor at all, but a more upmarket model instead, like an updated K-5 in plastic. The K500 could get a very simple update and remain very cheap - clearly below the K-S1. Then the lineup would be like this, with a step-up in price between each. I think it would make sense.
- K600 - Traditional but basic DSLR
- K-S1 - Small, designer DSLR
- K-?1 - Enthusiast DSLR
- K-3 - Advanced DSLR
09-03-2014, 07:42 AM   #1416
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Heck yeah it does! Grin. Narrow minded? ME? You're talking to a professional who defiantly shoots with a ruby red camera complete with matching ruby bling, on a black and white wicked witch of the east strap. I keep my gear in a ruby slippers/WWE striped bag combo and cheerfully bling my M43 cameras with flipping Swarovsky crystals. I'd say I'm WAY more open than most people around here to the idea of a non-black, non-traditionally designed camera. I just happen to think that some of the more recent cams like the K-01 and now this one are a bit chancy in terms of design and sales potential. The K-01 didn't exactly sell like crazy, though it did better than some initally thought it would once the price dropped a lot. Who knows? It could be a hit instead of a dud, but we'll just have to see, won't we?

This is Ruby, so far. I'm definitely not finished yet. This is not how I meant to do this, present Ruby by taking crappy pics in no light at 3 AM but whatever. :P I think I am going to have to work on the doodads. They're just not as good as the ones I used on my E-PL1. They keep falling off and rearranging themselves. I was having problems keeping them on just to take these few lousy pics.The self stick adhesive that came on them just isn't very good. I was trying not to use epoxy or glue on the K-30. I wanted to be able to remove it when and if I wished, but I think I'm going to have to try some or maybe at least put some bits of double stick tape under all of it.
So, since you apparently claim that you are not "narrow-minded" and are willing to bling-out your camera, why shout that the K-S1 is "FUGLY"? Unlike the K-01, the K-S1 still has the essential DSLR shape, and certain color combinations minimize it's slightly unusual styling, whereas other combinations accentuate it.

For many, the K-01's shape actually impeded it's usefulness. It does not look like this will be the case with the K-S1.
09-03-2014, 07:44 AM - 1 Like   #1417
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Um, did you totally miss that the name of my business is OZ themed and that most of my business involves taking pics of kids? There's a reason for the fairy tale take on things. [...]
But, you're OK being seen with THAT (even if by kids) - though not with a LEDs-disabled, subdued colors K-S1
Anyway, I won't continue prying on this; you stated your opinion, others stated theirs - and I don't see anything constructive that could be added. Have a nice day!

JPT: a camera just below the K-3, now that sounds interesting

Last edited by Kunzite; 09-03-2014 at 07:50 AM.
09-03-2014, 08:28 AM   #1418
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Um, did you totally miss that the name of my business is OZ themed and that most of my business involves taking pics of kids? There's a reason for the fairy tale take on things. It's both a branding thing and a kid thing. FYI, I've worked with kids half my life in one way or another. I'm primarily getting most of my business doing shoots with little kids so far. Kids don't always like having their pics taken. They are often afraid of serious adult looking basic black cameras.

So far they're not nearly so afraid of my flashy red K-30. That's one of the reasons I wanted it actually because I thought it would help a lot with kid shoots. So far, so good. It's been good working with it. The kids all love my K-30 so far and I'll just bet they'll love my ruby "jewels"and glitter caps too. If there's one thing I've learned about working with kids it's that a little glitter and magic is usually a GOOD thing. I've got a big bag of stuffies and other toys I take with me to shoots too. After the shoot they get to pick one. Sometimes I give out stuff like craft gems, stickers, sparkle tiaras, little cars, play dough cans, silly putty....

For an adult what I just did it is silly. But not for me, not with my job. I actually have two sets of caps. One that I did bling, one that I'm not. I doubt too many people would even notice the few body jewels I did use. They're pretty much the same color as the camera. The body decoration is pretty subtle compared to what I did with the caps. If I need to go corporate or something I can just use the plain caps, but I wanted one set that was fun, for use mainly with kids. The basic design of the K-30 is killer. A couple of craft gems and a glitter cap doesn't change that.

When I shoot with kids I actually wear a fun glitter t-shirt or something dumb on my head like one of those bobble head things. It helps. Anything that will them to smile and relax works for me. If they think I'm just another big kid so much the better. They won't be as scared and I'll get better shots. To me the basic design on the K-S1 is just a little weird, a little off putting. I almost wish they had used brighter colors and the crystal finish on them like they did for the K-30. It might have made more sense and looked a bit better than the colors they chose.
So, different things appeal to different people?

09-03-2014, 08:55 AM - 1 Like   #1419
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I know that people will get upset by this statement, but I would buy one. It would be awesome to have one full spectrum converted or color+IR converted.
09-03-2014, 09:09 AM   #1420
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Yeah, but maybe not enough in this case, that's all I'm saying. Hey, I never said I wasn't a bit odd myself. I am. I don't take the word "eccentric" as an insult, let's put it that way, laugh, but I'm also not about selling myself to the masses. I'm mostly catering to a very small group of niche markets. My clients they like me kind of weird. The clients I have, the location I'm in, the bling thing actually works. It might not in a more normal environment with mostly mainstream adult clients. It doesn't matter though because I am not really courting that kind of business or those kind of sales. I work mostly with people who have small children, with people in alternative lifestyle situations, with people who are in the entertainment industry, doing the kind of gigs where they actually love tons of glitz. Heck, some of the people I shoot I could glitter a pair of rhinestone boobs, a thong and some pasties on my camera cap and they'd likely just guffaw and love it. FYI, when I am not taking pics of tots or animals I've been known to take pics of six foot drag queens wearing full makeup, six inch glitter heels, mackie style show dresses, and feather boas. more than half my portfolio would not fit well into "Corporate America" but I don't care.


Is Pentax catering to Drag Queens? Little kids? I have my doubts on that score. :P
09-03-2014, 09:34 AM   #1421
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Actually i like K-S1 quite a lot, only one thing could be better, new basic kit lens design... In way like DA 35mm 2.4 or 50mm 1.8 ...
09-03-2014, 09:53 AM   #1422
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
JPT: a camera just below the K-3, now that sounds interesting
Curious last line, as that's where I see the K-s1: many great features of the K-3 in a smaller body. That's what I wanted too, and for me it's been announced. I don't believe I have ever taken a photo with my K-5 where I have tweaked both dials just before shooting, though I recall doing so with K-01, K200 and others using ± - how bizarre is that?

This chat reminds me of my home-made telescopes - after dark nobody notices my poor carpentry or paint, they just see amazing sky objects reflecting on excellent mirrors. When great 20mxpl images come out of the K-s1 (via excellent lenses) and impress me and others, and the camera's features meet my needs, who really cares that my hands are wrapped around an LED-lit grip when those lights are turned off anyway? And maybe my white camera will take longer to overheat too

---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 09:57 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
So even with this new K-S1 they still "haven't got a chance" to scale down the K-3's AF into new generation bodies?
Hm, something tells me K-S1 is not the only news for the Photokina ...
K-s1 includes AF hold and expanded AF area, so some K-3 features are there. They are spread to fewer focus points and more gaps, so the results aren't clear; I'll cut the engineers some slack and assume they looked into that before putting the parts together. Also no comments about f/2.8 AF sensors.

I'm not a bird-in-flight shooter much, but those extra K-3 AF features can help with other shooting too. And it does nothing for my M-series primes

Last edited by jimr-pdx; 09-03-2014 at 09:58 AM.
09-03-2014, 10:38 AM - 1 Like   #1423
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QuoteOriginally posted by vjacesslav Quote
Actually i like K-S1 quite a lot, only one thing could be better, new basic kit lens design... In way like DA 35mm 2.4 or 50mm 1.8 ...
Well I certainly could use a K-S1 but no way a would use a Kelly customized K30
Pentax is certainly no catering to you Kelly, but is that really a problem?
09-03-2014, 11:02 AM   #1424
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I just don't use the cameras for photographs. I don't have a Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Vines or Twitter account at all.
I have none of those accounts either. but many do and sharing is a huge part of what drives photography sales.

The darkroom was replaced by the PC as the digital darkroom, but now for vernacular use the mobile OS platforms are replacing the desktop OS's in a major way. Penatx/Ricoh primarily make vernacular cameras.

Any camera system that does not speak naturally, organically, and swiftly with mobile OS's without some intermediary is a dead in the water sales jug.

Look at Nikon's 1 series. An oddball system but now the latest J4 has built in wi-fi. This after Nikon apparently spent a fortune creating and marketing separate hardware wi-fi modules for their cameras as an after-market, high-margin accessory.

In the internet of things your camera system MUST be a thing or the whole system withers. Not only has the P&S market been eviscerated by the cameraphones by Apple Samsung, LG, HTC, etc. (note, almost no Japanese company left in the mix) their optical photography companies increasingly look like dinosaurs.

The path is now simple: optics-sensor-processor-wi-fi-mobile or dekstop device.
09-03-2014, 11:14 AM   #1425
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I have none of those accounts either. but many do and sharing is a huge part of what drives photography sales.

The darkroom was replaced by the PC as the digital darkroom, but now for vernacular use the mobile OS platforms are replacing the desktop OS's in a major way. Penatx/Ricoh primarily make vernacular cameras.

Any camera system that does not speak naturally, organically, and swiftly with mobile OS's without some intermediary is a dead in the water sales jug.

Look at Nikon's 1 series. An oddball system but now the latest J4 has built in wi-fi. This after Nikon apparently spent a fortune creating and marketing separate hardware wi-fi modules for their cameras as an after-market, high-margin accessory.

In the internet of things your camera system MUST be a thing or the whole system withers. Not only has the P&S market been eviscerated by the cameraphones by Apple Samsung, LG, HTC, etc. (note, almost no Japanese company left in the mix) their optical photography companies increasingly look like dinosaurs.

The path is now simple: optics-sensor-processor-wi-fi-mobile or dekstop device.
It's a matter of time before adobe lightroom is working well on tablets. It would be nice to give a quick tap and have NFC import of that days photo's where you can then make your edits and upload to flickr/facebook/google+/instagram or whatever. Wifi also lets you use apps for timelapse or remote shooting. Nikon's D5300 already has this and I'm sure Canon will follow at the same price point.
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