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09-03-2014, 11:35 AM   #1426
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
It's a matter of time before adobe lightroom is working well on tablets. It would be nice to give a quick tap and have NFC import of that days photo's where you can then make your edits and upload to flickr/facebook/google+/instagram or whatever. Wifi also lets you use apps for timelapse or remote shooting. Nikon's D5300 already has this and I'm sure Canon will follow at the same price point.
I would kill for this.

Ok, maybe not kill.

Maim.

I'd definitely maim.

09-03-2014, 12:01 PM   #1427
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
It's a matter of time before adobe lightroom is working well on tablets
Actually it already works very well on oversized tablets with a built-in keyboard. I've got a Lenovo X230 with 12.5" IPS screen and a 4th generation Intel multi-core processor running Windows 7 and LR 5 along with several other demanding programs. The battery lasts for 5-9 hours, so you don't sacrifice much in the length of battery charge, either. There is a version with a touchscreen, if you truly believe your fingers are a better input device than a trackpoint and human sized keyboard. It has a built-in video camera, but I bought a DSLR to take pictures, not to run software, so I use each device for the purpose it was designed for.
QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
have NFC import of that days photo's
Maximum bandwidth for NFC is 424Kbit/s, the slowest Bluetooth connection is 1Mbit/s, and USB 3.0 can go up to 5 Gbit/s (10,000 times faster). What's the benefit of using a wireless technology to transfer a days worth of images, when it takes more than a day to do it?
QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Wifi also lets you use apps for timelapse or remote shooting
You can do that now with a K-3 and a Flu-Card.
09-03-2014, 12:07 PM   #1428
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LR on tablet? If you're talking about mostly hybrids like Surface3 Pro, OK but it already does AFAIK.
For the rest, not quite there yet if we'll ever be. Processing power is nowhere and I'll remind you we all cry because LR is slow on PC.
As for using your fingers to do anything but very quick adjustments and export, I don't see how to really that be the precision of an elephant in porcelain (china) shop.
09-03-2014, 12:19 PM   #1429
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Maximum bandwidth for NFC is 424Kbit/s, the slowest Bluetooth connection is 1Mbit/s, and USB 3.0 can go up to 5 Gbit/s (10,000 times faster). What's the benefit of using a wireless technology to transfer a days worth of images, when it takes more than a day to do it?
There is a variant of the "Wi-Fi Direct" standard that allows a peer-to-peer connection to be established via an initial NFC handshake, with minimal further manual setup required. That's where NFC shines -- the low data rate doesn't matter much because it's only used for a second or two, then a high-speed and longer-range Wi-Fi link takes over for the actual data transfer.

This would be really nice to have in a camera, and it would help with power consumption too. The camera can keep Wi-Fi turned off until a "tap" when you want to use it.

09-03-2014, 12:52 PM   #1430
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QuoteOriginally posted by Quicksand Quote
a peer-to-peer connection to be established via an initial NFC handshake, with minimal further manual setup required.
That's only an advantage when you want to hook up to a new wi-fi network. But nowhere near as convenient or fast as taking the memory card out of the camera and transferring data with a wired connection to a storage device. In theory, you can transfer up 500Mbit/s wirelessly, which is still 10 times slower than USB 3.0, but in practice getting above 100 Mbit/s wirelessly when more than one device is on the network is very difficult. Wireless tethering has a place, although for studio work, wired USB tethering on cameras that support it has fewer problems with latency and offers more detailed previews. NFC is also weak from a security standpoint, which is why its use for electronic transactions is generally limited to the price of a cup of coffee or a hot dog at a ball park. NFC looks cool in YouTube videos, but it's a useless technology.
09-03-2014, 01:11 PM   #1431
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How fast do you actually transfer on USB3.0? My devices might've doubled in speed when I went from 2.0 to 3.0, and 'in theory' it's a much, much larger difference.

Listen, we're thinking about this problem for ourselves as photographers... what we should do is think of what would appeal to the people who are on the fence about buying a DSLR. I think most of them are used to file transfer wirelessly, now, and most of them aren't taking a gigabyte of pictures in a day. Think of 30-50 pictures.
09-03-2014, 01:36 PM   #1432
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Actually it already works very well on oversized tablets with a built-in keyboard. I've got a Lenovo X230 with 12.5" IPS screen and a 4th generation Intel multi-core processor running Windows 7 and LR 5 along with several other demanding programs. The battery lasts for 5-9 hours, so you don't sacrifice much in the length of battery charge, either. There is a version with a touchscreen, if you truly believe your fingers are a better input device than a trackpoint and human sized keyboard. It has a built-in video camera, but I bought a DSLR to take pictures, not to run software, so I use each device for the purpose it was designed for.Maximum bandwidth for NFC is 424Kbit/s, the slowest Bluetooth connection is 1Mbit/s, and USB 3.0 can go up to 5 Gbit/s (10,000 times faster). What's the benefit of using a wireless technology to transfer a days worth of images, when it takes more than a day to do it?You can do that now with a K-3 and a Flu-Card.


The windows tablets are not optimal for lightroom yet, that Lenovo for example has a 1366x768 res screen which is pretty low. The latest Galaxy Note has a 12" 2566x1600 screen for example. As for fingers, just use a stylus if you can't be precise with finger's on a tablet. I was not aware of the NFC limitations but like others mentioned engineers will find a way. As for FLU cards, why pay for a 100 dollar addon card with limited memory when camera's like the Fuji XT-1 offer the same features with built in wifi and camera/tablet apps. Then you can just buy a cheaper 64GB card for storage.

---------- Post added 09-03-2014 at 02:54 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
LR on tablet? If you're talking about mostly hybrids like Surface3 Pro, OK but it already does AFAIK.
For the rest, not quite there yet if we'll ever be. Processing power is nowhere and I'll remind you we all cry because LR is slow on PC.
As for using your fingers to do anything but very quick adjustments and export, I don't see how to really that be the precision of an elephant in porcelain (china) shop.
No I expect it'll work on a ios or andriod tablet well in time. The ios version already seems to be pretty quick. Processing power, it's true isn't as much but the operating systems are far different on pc and mobile devices. I wouldn't imagine using using the 50,000+ photo catalogs either with the tablet like you do with desktop and multiple large hard drives.

Check this out, this is out right now. Obviously not as useful as a full blown desktop version but it's coming along.

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/how-to/lightroom-mobile-adjustments.html

Last edited by LeeRunge; 09-03-2014 at 01:44 PM.
09-03-2014, 01:54 PM   #1433
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Once again - the real-world utility of Wi-Fi for dSLR's is for single jpeg transfers to social media through an intermediary device (phone or tablet). That's not a problem if the consumer demanding in-camera Wi-Fi is stepping up from a touchscreen device to a more versatile image capture device. It's not so good for users who want to transfer multiple tens of DNG images or more at a time to a Post-Processing platform for presentation developing.

In much the same way a hinged LCD has a traditional purpose (refconverter) that has been adapted by new-paradigm users but is not optimal for their needs (has to rotate 180 degrees for selfies), file transfer protocols that are optimized for traditional users (SD card hard or cable transfer at USB 3.0 speeds) are sub-optimal for new-paradigm users.

The debate will always boil down to whether every single camera body made and sold by Ricoh must have in body Wi-Fi or be a failure; whether traditional users must pay for another feature they don't use; or whether products can and should be differentiated with a selelcted set of features optimized to the target buyer's needs and wants. If Wi-Fi is so cheap and easy it can be a differentiator. Keep it off the K-3 and the dLX-1

I simply do not want to pay for Wi-Fi - I don't want it in there; don't want to fear it can be hacked; don;t want it broadcasting an SSID and I certainly don't want my image files in the cloud (and I have no nude selfies to fret about).

A Greek philosopher's assertions are unconvincing.

The limiting factor for tablet DNG PP is 1. the OS handling RAW; 2. File Transfer protocol

09-03-2014, 02:30 PM   #1434
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Think of 30-50 pictures.
Those are only the morning selfies.
09-03-2014, 04:10 PM   #1435
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Sony version of K-S1 is even more compact:

Sony madness becomes real: E-mount QX1 officially announced :) | Mirrorless Rumors

The future is here!
09-03-2014, 05:28 PM   #1436
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Since the K-S1 was already announced, until 16 September there is time for another camera; but we're running out of time. We'll see... The other brands are doing this to differentiate between products.
The K-3's module might also be a bit more expensive.
Hard to say. If I am not mistaken, K-S1 uses the same pentaprism as the K-3, and also has an AA-filter simulator. I suspect, the same SR assembly as in the K-3 for that matter. Albeit not the same resolution sensor, but I presume they could have used the same sensor as in the K-3, but for psychological reasons of market distinction, they opted for a 20MP one.
So now when they have a 20MP sensor, and did not use AF from the K-3, can we expect a camera that has either a new 20 MP sensor (for economy of scale) or a new camera that uses same AF as in the K-3 (together with everything else).
In theory, there is a place for both new APS-C body, and the .. (FF?) and all that at a significant low cost because of component sharing.
09-03-2014, 05:29 PM   #1437
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
The windows tablets are not optimal for lightroom yet
That was my attempt to be ironic. The X230 I have is a conventional notebook. If you look at functionality, not labels and form factor, my little laptop does everything a tablet can, and better. It weighs 3 pounds and is an inch thick. The battery lasts just as long. It has the power of a desktop computer in a package slightly larger than a 10" tablet, with an ergonomic keyboard and a shell made from carbon fibre and composites. Grant you, it's a dull black colour, and I'll never put it in front of my face to take cell phone quality pictures with. That was my point. If you want a tablet to do what a laptop can, why not go straight to a laptop? You don't have to wait for technology fairies to magically transform your stretched iPod Touch into a laptop without a keyboard, without a hard drive, without a CISC processor and without multiple I/O ports and expansion capabilities. You can buy a laptop today that has all of the useful features the super tablet of tomorrow is never going to have.

To get back on topic, I think the K-S1 is targeted at people who are getting tired of taking pictures with their tablet, who want to go back to what is familiar to them in the form of an optical viewfinder camera that they can comfortably hold in their hands and look fashionable and serious at the same time. Which suggests to me that the K-S1 is a bit off the mark. It doesn't look automatic enough for the target market so those potential customers won't be able to visualize themselves taking pictures with it and it looks a little gimmicky, so it doesn't look as fashionable or serious as it should. With a better design, the fact that it's not as good of a value as the K-50 would be irrelevant.
09-03-2014, 06:34 PM   #1438
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
It's a matter of time before adobe lightroom is working well on tablets. It would be nice to give a quick tap and have NFC import of that days photo's where you can then make your edits and upload to flickr/facebook/google+/instagram or whatever. Wifi also lets you use apps for timelapse or remote shooting. Nikon's D5300 already has this and I'm sure Canon will follow at the same price point.
The just-announed Sony QX thingies use NFC.

---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 10:44 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
LR on tablet? If you're talking about mostly hybrids like Surface3 Pro, OK but it already does AFAIK.
For the rest, not quite there yet if we'll ever be. Processing power is nowhere and I'll remind you we all cry because LR is slow on PC.
As for using your fingers to do anything but very quick adjustments and export, I don't see how to really that be the precision of an elephant in porcelain (china) shop.
Lightroom is overkill for 90% of DSLR shooters. Yet we still need to sell to that 90%.

The same clientele is walking away from MS Word towards much lighter clients for word processing.

There is still a market for dedicated cameras with quality optics and fast, accurate AF, plus hobby tinkering and LBA nut jobs.

What there is less and less market is for dedicated LR-like software. This is partly driven by the app-driven mobile OS's and the stagnation and even decline of the home PC. Aperture is gone A(Apple sees the numbers, made the call). LR is pretty much moving towards subscription. Capture One etc. are OK but are pretty much in their own little world of the digital darkroom.

Problem is: most of the market who buy mid-range optic-driven cameras do not process extensively. They simply do not have the mite and will not invest in the techniques. They need very high-quality JPEGs or some modestly scripted RAW to go straight from the optical engineering to the mobile OS via wireless communication as the baseline technical behaviour. Small scale edits and DAM should be automated as much as possible with a seamless back-and-forth between devices. In one sense the SD card should be seen more and more as the backup, or the second copy.
09-03-2014, 06:53 PM   #1439
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
.. In one sense the SD card should be seen more and more as the backup, or the second copy.
I think it is right.
Cameras of the future must not rely on SD cards as the sole mean of their function. Instead the camera itself should have sufficient internal memory storage for quicker processing and rely on SD card more like as external means of backup.
Leica is heading a good direction — I truly hope Japanese optics companies will open their eyes. Because a camera that you have forgotten an SD card for, or the card if filled up, is not a camera to be with you always — despite what the marketing team claims.
Cameras must have sufficient internal storage first.
09-03-2014, 07:09 PM   #1440
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Maximum bandwidth for NFC is 424Kbit/s, the slowest Bluetooth connection is 1Mbit/s, and USB 3.0 can go up to 5 Gbit/s (10,000 times faster). What's the benefit of using a wireless technology to transfer a days worth of images, when it takes more than a day to do it?
There is a high speed version of NFC called TransferJet of which speed is 375 Mbps. I wish if Flu card would support TransferJet. One of the attractive use cases is to play back HD video to TV without HDMI cable.
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