[monochrome]

Let's talk again after you'll decide to be reasonable.

Give cali92rs a break here. He's trying to understand the rationale for the K-S1 and the pricing strategy. I contend he understands it pretty well, actually - he just doesn't yet know he does.

For the most part I don't think the K-S1 is designed, built nor priced primarily to appeal to a Western, enthusiast demographic. Sure, we'll put some on Amazon and the big online retailers, but Ricoh isn't going to advertise, and so it won't be in the Box Stores - and that's how middle-market consumers buy middle-market electronics these days. It isn't going to win a Consumer Reports Checkbox battle with a cheap Canon so people won't go looking for it on Amazon. It certainly isn't designed for enthusiasts or experienced camera buyers in the west, who seem willing to buy polished metal retro-traditional mirrorless for $1,000's, but not hundreds for colored, LED'ed dSLR's with a strange feature mix and a different interface. We're far too conservative for that here.

NOTE: Sarcasm was not applied in this post.

[monochrome]

You're right. It's targeting the stupid people who don't know it will cost $200 less before long. I wonder how many stupid people Ricoh thinks are going to buy it before it settles into its natural price?

How many stupid people bought a K-30 before it settled into its natural price? How many stupid people bought a K-50 before it settled into its natural price? How many stupid people bought a K-3 before it settled into its natural price?

How many people are so stupid they don't know to call up and negotiate? MAP is advertised price.

Just curious - what is the natural price of the K-S1?

Oh, and while we're at it - how about you back it down a touch, OK?

[cali92rs]

Are you seriously saying that the PRIME III processor - used in the APS-C and medium format flagships - is $50 cheaper than the PRIME MII? Which would make the low-end processor several times more expensive? Oh, please.
Let's talk again after you'll decide to be reasonable.

The PRIME III is already developed and being built...it should follow that putting it in another platform should be cheaper than developing a completely new processor. So...if the PRIME MII was developed for the sole purpose of making it less capable than the flagships...yet still not allowing the camera to be more affordable, that is somehow reasonable?
And calling me unreasonable? Is it unreasonable to think that maybe, just maybe Ricoh could make a misstep in pricing (GXR, GRDs)?? Or is it out of your comfort zone saying a single critical thing about Ricoh?

[Kunzite]

monochrome:
But he can't understand unless starting from reasonable assumptions and ideas; not by downplaying changes/differences.
For the record, engineer samples for the Fujitsu Milbeaut M-6 are/were less than $30 (3000 yen to be precise); in bulk prices are obviously less. I couldn't find the price for M-7, but it shouldn't be much different.

cali92rs:
Yes, I think you're taking an unreasonable stance on this matter.
And I'll add to the $50 "savings": the PRIME MII being developed "for the sole purpose of making it less capable" - obviously that's a bogus construction; it was used in order to make the K-S1 more capable than the previous similar-class models while keeping a low price (by the way, the CDAF is quite snappy)

The effort of supporting a same family processor should not be high at all. They're not developing them - Fujitsu does.
Then come the real work, adding support for the new sensor, improving CDAF algorithms, interface changes etc.

Production costs are just a part of the retail price, and the camera is not designed to be sold at MSRP for long. I think we shouldn't stress much over it, as neither you nor me want to buy one
But if you want, I can agree that the MSRP is $20 higher than it should

---

Last edited by Kunzite; 10-02-2014 at 10:17 AM.

[cali92rs]

Give cali92rs a break here. He's trying to understand the rationale for the K-S1 and the pricing strategy. I contend he understands it pretty well, actually - he just doesn't yet know he does.

For the most part I don't think the K-S1 is designed, built nor priced primarily to appeal to a Western, enthusiast demographic. Sure, we'll put some on Amazon and the big online retailers, but Ricoh isn't going to advertise, and so it won't be in the Box Stores - and that's how middle-market consumers buy middle-market electronics these days. It isn't going to win a Consumer Reports Checkbox battle with a cheap Canon so people won't go looking for it on Amazon. It certainly isn't designed for enthusiasts or experienced camera buyers in the west, who seem willing to buy polished metal retro-traditional mirrorless for $1,000's, but not hundreds for colored, LED'ed dSLR's with a strange feature mix and a different interface. We're far too conservative for that here.

NOTE: Sarcasm was not applied in this post.

I understand what you are saying...and it may very well be true.
However, if it is not built for Westerners, why should I, or any other Westerner, buy it? Just for the act of donating money to Ricoh?

Why not build a "dumbed down" version of the K-3 and stick it in Target, Best Buy etc and market that to Westerners?

[monochrome]

I understand what you are saying...and it may very well be true.
However, if it is not built for Westerners, why should I, or any other Westerner, buy it? Just for the act of donating money to Ricoh?

We probably shouldn't. We should probably buy a K-50 until they are replaced by a K-3 Minus - which might not happen even next year.

Why not build a "dumbed down" version of the K-3 and stick it in Target, Best Buy etc and market that to Westerners?

There are supposedly pallets of K-50's in Target stores at $499 with kit lens (advertised at $599 - online in Cart and In-Store 'markdowns' to $499 with a 'Advertised Price' disclaimer). That whole 'Advertised Price' thing is the 'Call and Ask' workaround for MAP Advertised Pricing.

Here's another hard thing for us to accept - we're not the Masters of the Consumption Universe any more. We're (the West) a shrinking, debt-burdened, angry, disloyal, whiny market now. Few global manufacturers build and price for us and expect everyone else to suck it up and do things our way any more. They don't - I don't think - make middle-market cameras just for us. High-end like a K-3 and a $2,399 FF long zoom - sure, since they don't need to sell so many to make profit.

The Baby Boom - the great, acquisitive, 40,000,000 excess person cohort is fundamentally beyond its acquiring years. So long as a K10D still takes photographs it is good enough. A K-01 is as good as a K-50 for us. A K-3 is probably the last dSLR I will ever buy (unless there really is a FF next year).

We're now the ones who have to accept the reality that is being driven by the East.

[cali92rs]

We probably shouldn't. We should probably buy a K-50 until they are replaced by a K-3 Minus - which might not happen even next year.There are supposedly pallets of K-50's in Target stores at $499 with kit lens (advertised at $599 - online in Cart and In-Store 'markdowns' to $499 with a 'Advertised Price' disclaimer). That whole 'Advertised Price' thing is the 'Call and Ask' workaround for MAP Advertised Pricing.

You, in a nutshell, captured my whole problem with this situation and why I am not as infatuated with the Ricoh ownership as some.
The K-3 Minus (I am plagiarizing that from you), should be a top priority IF the US market were a priority for Ricoh. The fact that they may not come up with one next year disturbs me, but I agree, it probably won't happen because of this year's K-S1 release and nexy year's probable FF release.

My wife is a Target-holic, which means I am relegated to baby stroller duty, and I frequent the camera aisles. In all the Target's I have been to, I have never seen an non-optio Pentax for sale. Best Buy, same thing. At Frye's, I have only seen an original Q. They may have boatloads on-line, but the non-camera saavy consumer isn't going to go out of their way to search online for Pentax. They are going to pick up the cheap Rebel while buying detergent and groceries at Target. Or if they are at Best Buy, they are going to buy a brand they are familiar with. In every Sunday Newspaper you see Canon and Nikon ads and sales.

If they want a foot hold in America, they need a K-3 Minus to stick in Target et al and they need to advertise here. They have done neither and there does not seem to be a plan in place to do so. K-3's are awesome cameras, but still, Ricoh does not advertise here in America so hardly anyone knows about them.

Ricoh is very Japan-centric, and their products, pricing and marketing reflect that fact. That's fine if you are in Asia, but if you are an American, it does not give you a warm and fuzzy.

[ChristianRock]

When the Canon SL-1 came out, it was 749. Now it's selling for 599. I expect the K-S1 to follow the same price pattern after a year or so, it's about the same kind of market I think - small yet capable DSLR. Of course the difference is that the Pentax is much more capable

I can't believe people argue over this kind of thing - the price of something that they have no intention of buying...

---------- Post added 10-02-14 at 01:41 PM ----------

Ricoh is very Japan-centric, and their products, pricing and marketing reflect that fact. That's fine if you are in Asia, but if you are an American, it does not give you a warm and fuzzy.

So you're saying, this should be released in Asia only and US customers should not even have access to it? Is that your logic?

[cali92rs]

---------- Post added 10-02-14 at 01:41 PM ----------



So you're saying, this should be released in Asia only and US customers should not even have access to it? Is that your logic?

No...(although Monochrome has argued that fact, and I almost agree with him).
My argument is that it should a) be cheaper or b) in addition to Japan-centric products, release products that have a wider range of appeal, like the K-3minus, for the non-asian consumers.

[IchabodCrane]

How many stupid people bought a K-30 before it settled into its natural price? How many stupid people bought a K-50 before it settled into its natural price? How many stupid people bought a K-3 before it settled into its natural price?

How many people are so stupid they don't know to call up and negotiate? MAP is advertised price.

Just curious - what is the natural price of the K-S1?

Oh, and while we're at it - how about you back it down a touch, OK?

I will gladly answer your questions and I'd like to see your answers to your own questions, too.

Judging by how many K-30s I saw around, the answer may have been as low as "one" (me). So I learned my lesson and didn't make the same mistake twice with the K-3. Not sure about the K-50 but I don't think I've ever seen one in use. There's a pattern here.

I don't know how many people call up one of the two retailers in the USA who would even entertain negotiating over a Pentax camera. However, I'm highly confident it's a fraction of the number who would call them up to order a Pentax camera if it was advertised with a more reasonable price.

Natural price for the K-S1? Set by the market which probably means the D3300 -- $550 with lens.

[monochrome]

If they want a foot hold in America, they need a K-3 Minus to stick in Target et al and they need to advertise here. They have done neither and there does not seem to be a plan in place to do so. K-3's are awesome cameras, but still, Ricoh does not advertise here in America so hardly anyone knows about them.

Ricoh is very Japan-centric, and their products, pricing and marketing reflect that fact. That's fine if you are in Asia, but if you are an American, it does not give you a warm and fuzzy.

We're so self-oriented we always just assume everyone wants a market presence in North America - but at what cost to them? Maybe we're not such a great deal. Sure, they'll take what they can get, but are they going to configure the entire company to max out here? If they have to make the last marginal product choice between a design that favors us or Asia, will they favor us?

I'm not sure - AT THIS TIME - Ricoh wants a significant presence in the US / North America / EU. I'm not certain AT THIS TIME they have the production capacity to service a large market share here. I'm not certain AT THIS TIME they have the distribution and support infrastructure necessary (Hoya destroyed it), nor the cash flow to advertise effectively.

I BELIEVE in Ricoh's long term plan they intend to rebuild Western markets - but there are other things that must happen first that we don't ever see (manufacturing and production improvements to catch up with modern machine techniques others use, etc.). When the other steps have been completed in sequence then I believe we'll see more attention - and not before.

It is in my mind entirely within the realm of possibility that the pricing strategy is intentionally designed to encourage lower sales at higher margins for the time being.

We have the K-3 at a great price. We have access to the 645Z and lenses for the first time in a decade. We have the K-30/50 and (formerly) the K-500 (how did that work out?).

I've driven Subaru's for 30 years. I've had this very discussion dozens of times about their cars - they're over-engineered, quirky and expensive. Just in the last four years they're starting to price and market for more share - and their cars are gradually getting less Subaru-ish and more Toyota-ish. I'm not sure I like the trade-off, but I'm a dead customer to them -0 they can't gain market share from me - they already have it.

Of course, I don't know anything. I operate from a base assumption that Ricoh makes good decisions for the entirety of the cpmany - and I try to figure out the logic behind them. If Ricoh are idiots - well then they deserve to fail and someone else will buy K-mount. But I doubt thy're idiots.

[monochrome]

I will gladly answer your questions and I'd like to see your answers to your own questions, too.

I don't have any idea - but the only digital camera I've ever bought that wasn't a lower price six months later was the K10D I bought on end-of-life clearance. So what's different about the K-S1 pricing strategy from every other digital camera offered by everyone else everywhere (other than the Ricoh GR)?

Ricoh simply isn't going head-to-head with Canon and Nikon, and apparently not against Sony either. If this is another K-01 in six months then I'll buy one for $200 on Woot - but I don't want one at all right now and I don't think I'll have the chance later.

[cali92rs]

We're so self-oriented we always just assume everyone wants a market presence in North America - but at what cost to them? Maybe we're not such a great deal. Sure, they'll take what they can get, but are they going to configure the entire company to max out here? If they have to make the last marginal product choice between a design that favors us or Asia, will they favor us?

I'm not sure - AT THIS TIME - Ricoh wants a significant presence in the US / North America / EU. I'm not certain AT THIS TIME they have the production capacity to service a large market share here. I'm not certain AT THIS TIME they have the distribution and support infrastructure necessary (Hoya destroyed it), nor the cash flow to advertise effectively.

I BELIEVE in Ricoh's long term plan they intend to rebuild Western markets - but there are other things that must happen first that we don't ever see (manufacturing and production improvements to catch up with modern machine techniques others use, etc.). When the other steps have been completed in sequence then I believe we'll see more attention - and not before.

It is in my mind entirely within the realm of possibility that the pricing strategy is intentionally designed to encourage lower sales at higher margins for the time being.

We have the K-3 at a great price. We have access to the 645Z and lenses for the first time in a decade. We have the K-30/50 and (formerly) the K-500 (how did that work out?).

I've driven Subaru's for 30 years. I've had this very discussion dozens of times about their cars - they're over-engineered, quirky and expensive. Just in the last four years they're starting to price and market for more share - and their cars are gradually getting less Subaru-ish and more Toyota-ish. I'm not sure I like the trade-off, but I'm a dead customer to them -0 they can't gain market share from me - they already have it.

Of course, I don't know anything. I operate from a base assumption that Ricoh makes good decisions for the entirety of the cpmany - and I try to figure out the logic behind them. If Ricoh are idiots - well then they deserve to fail and someone else will buy K-mount. But I doubt thy're idiots.

I agree with all that...I certainly don't think they are idiots.
I justam not as bullish in regards to Ricoh's long term plan to rebuild in Western markets. They may be perfectly content to make tidy profits in the Asian market. Even their business machines don't have a large presence in the U.S.

Yes, we have the K-3 and 645Z (which is such a luxury most people would have to choose between paying their rent for half a year an buying one), but who knows how often those will get a refresh. They may be on the same timeline as Canon with their 7D. Who knows, because they don't communicate with their customers, at least with their English speaking ones. The only communication we get is through Executives and I trust executives and marketing folks as far as I can throw them.

[monochrome]

Even their business machines don't have a large presence in the U.S.

Really?

"IKON Office Solutions was a company based in Malvern, Pennsylvania.[1] It was the world's largest independent provider of document management systems and services until it was purchased by manufacturer Ricoh in 2008."

[monochrome]

Yes, we have the K-3 and 645Z (which is such a luxury most people would have to choose between paying their rent for half a year an buying one), but who knows how often those will get a refresh. They may be on the same timeline as Canon with their 7D. Who knows, because they don't communicate with their customers, at least with their English speaking ones. The only communication we get is through Executives and I trust executives and marketing folks as far as I can throw them.

K-3 - 24-36 month product cycle. 645Z 48-60 month product cycle. Mid-range 18-30 month product cycle. Q-x - 12-18 month product cycle. X-Sx product cycle at the shorter end - I believe each model is a one-off with a single planned production run.

Lenses - 10-year product life with several production runs, possibly with a slight update each new run. Expect lens prices to be discouragingly high. If you think MAP pricing caused a storm, wait until the HD D-FA Pro 1:2.8 70~210mm DC (IF) is released.

Executive and marketing people are just people who studied a process in a vacuum for a few years. All of their decisions are risk-based rather than return-optimized. They are risk-averse by education. Their job is to efficiently and optimally allocate scarce capital in a complex world. We are product-centric. They are product agnostic.

You and I are not real. We are outliers. Outliers are risky. They statistically smooth outliers away so that they can make one decision, apply their entire corporate system of capital and people to that decision, and make profit (with a high degree of certainty that profit will ensue).

People with risk appetite are small businesses who want to get large quickly. If they lose they don't lose much. If they win, they win big. Once they get big they can't afford to lose - no one wants to lose big - so they morph into risk-averse businesses and hire MBA's from Harvard and Paris to manage risk.

Pentax may be small but Ricoh is big.