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08-30-2014, 11:09 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
The K-5 was better rated than the Nikon D7000.

I don't think they're biased towards Nikon, seeing as all the highest rated sensors are Sony sensors. It just seems like the Sony sensors do better, with minor advantages to one manufacturer or another based on read noise, etc.

It's possible that they're wrong about Fuji lying about the X100. I doubt it heavily. I never said anything about the X100s, but as I recall Fuji started lying less in later years. Still, I won't support a company that actively deceives the userbase.
I looked at that X100 review and it looks like the RAW files just stay at ISO 1600 which was probably the camera's max. The X100s max's at iso 6400 in RAW but the Jpegs go to 25600 with excellent results. No doubt that was the sensor's max output and Fuji's JPEG tech took over from there. Fuji does have a very nice JPEG engine. I never paid attention to Fuji until the X100s/Xpro1 XE2 and XT-1 came along. If they continue on current trajectory the new 24mp Xtrans sensors may be amazing, or they may just be "meh" like the transition from Sony's 16mp to 24mp offerings. DxO only analyzes RAW output so no consideration is given to how well a companies processing engines perform. My K5 and X100s are not worlds apart at ISO6400 in RAW but they are in the JPEG's. The key factor is I have to post process RAW and it's more time consuming off the K5 vs the Jpegs which come out very close to what I would have post processed on the K5 out of the camera, it's a huge time saver. Pentax has had a crappy Jpeg engine for years imo.

I didn't know about this ISO debacle until you guys started pointing it out. Fuji seems to have burned a few of you for life!

I'm not warmed to this K-S1 but I may be wrong. The 20mp sensor may be excellent and Pentax, which imo has the best handling cameras may have an excellent control system on board. I ditched my 7d for the K5 primarily for the Pentax handling. They seem to know that the Iphone has the majority of pictures on Flicr and other sites and be aiming for Iphone users who want more control and quality from the pictures. Good luck to them on that front, I certainly want Pentax to succeed as I have a lot of money in Pentax products.

08-30-2014, 11:17 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
I don't really care what DxO says. I care about the images to my eyes from a camera. The X100s look great, that's all that matters. Same ISO setting as my K5, same exposure. DxO also said the K7 sensor was terrible and it wasn't. That site also seems heavily biased toward anything Nikon.
Then your lying eyes aren't addressing the issue, which is a standard FUD tactic.
08-30-2014, 11:29 AM   #138
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There is no way a Fuji sensor which in it's basis is also a Sony cmos, like in the K-5 is much better at high iso.
08-30-2014, 11:52 AM   #139
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I both agree and disagree with the consensus here.


I totally dig that Pentax is trying something new, and putting all the controls on the back will, I think, be less intimidating to novices. Meanwhile, though, there is a rock solid camera and all that lens selection available. Once more info and reviews comes out, if they are positive I would consider recommending it as a gift camera for that crowd. The casual female camera users of all ages I talk to have three major complaints that aren't something the person behind the camera can fix:
1) My DSLR is too big & heavy, I leave it at home,
2) My camera is too slow, by the time the picture takes the moment is gone
3) I want to learn, but I don't know where to start with all those controls...


This camera addresses at least two -- I remain skeptical about the viewfinder. It is surely faster than their old P&S, but maybe not fast enough.


BUT -- I don't think they went far enough. I don't see the actual need for a touchscreen, but it would be a good selling point. And it should definitely have WiFi and maybe even apps to upload to FB/Twitter/Instagram/etc. That would be the P&S killer and the ultimate bridge camera.


I also remain skeptical about the ergonomics of that grip. I can give Pentax the benefit of the doubt since their ergonomics tend to be very good, but I sure wouldn't buy one without picking it up and playing with it.

08-30-2014, 12:09 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Then your lying eyes aren't addressing the issue, which is a standard FUD tactic.
Meh, maybe you should take a peak at real photos instead of dxomark scores?
08-30-2014, 12:23 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by NicoleC Quote
I both agree and disagree with the consensus here.


I totally dig that Pentax is trying something new, and putting all the controls on the back will, I think, be less intimidating to novices. Meanwhile, though, there is a rock solid camera and all that lens selection available. Once more info and reviews comes out, if they are positive I would consider recommending it as a gift camera for that crowd. The casual female camera users of all ages I talk to have three major complaints that aren't something the person behind the camera can fix:
1) My DSLR is too big & heavy, I leave it at home,
2) My camera is too slow, by the time the picture takes the moment is gone
3) I want to learn, but I don't know where to start with all those controls...


This camera addresses at least two -- I remain skeptical about the viewfinder. It is surely faster than their old P&S, but maybe not fast enough.


BUT -- I don't think they went far enough. I don't see the actual need for a touchscreen, but it would be a good selling point. And it should definitely have WiFi and maybe even apps to upload to FB/Twitter/Instagram/etc. That would be the P&S killer and the ultimate bridge camera.
Perhaps the cost of a touchscreen played a role? I mean if Ricoh has no plans on touchscreens in any of it's cameras (potentially beyond this one had it one) then maybe they looked at that and decided no way jose. It seems all of the Ricoh cameras share technology which probably reduces costs for both design and manufacturing.. having a touch screen special built for this lone camera might have then been a deciding factor against?
08-30-2014, 12:39 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
I looked at that X100 review and it looks like the RAW files just stay at ISO 1600 which was probably the camera's max. .
X100's ISO from ISO1600 and higher are the trickery. It's confirmed by tests. The real ISO1000, but marked as ISO6400. That's why you can see cleaner pictures.

---------- Post added 08-30-2014 at 12:41 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Meh, maybe you should take a peak at real photos instead of dxomark scores?
DXO says the truth, it's science. The real pictures at ISO1000 (but marked as 6400) look always better than K-5's picture at ISO6400.
08-30-2014, 01:01 PM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
X100's ISO from ISO1600 and higher are the trickery. It's confirmed by tests. The real ISO1000, but marked as ISO6400. That's why you can see cleaner pictures.

---------- Post added 08-30-2014 at 12:41 PM ----------



DXO says the truth, it's science. The real pictures at ISO1000 (but marked as 6400) look always better than K-5's picture at ISO6400.

I guess we'll see when they review the x100s and xt1.

08-30-2014, 01:14 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
You don't get it. I don't give a damn about the performance.
I give a crap about advertising false iso values which in the case of the X100 are:
Code:
Advertised - Real
200 127
400 253
800 504
1600 1000
3200 1012
6400 1076
As measured by DXO. Since you use DXO to witness sharpness of Fuji sensors/lenses, I guess you will accept this as a valid source as well. Won't you?

As for the choice of sensors, if DXO tested a more recent APS Fuji sensor, I could have taken those measurements, indeed.
Those figures are totally bogus. I have a Fuji that I use once in a while and can attest that the ISO is "off" but only by about 1/3 stop from my Pentax.
08-30-2014, 01:31 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by NicoleC Quote
And it should definitely have WiFi and maybe even apps to upload to FB/Twitter/Instagram/etc. That would be the P&S killer and the ultimate bridge camera.
@NicoleC - I get where you are going. ]It would need an EMEI number and you would need to sign up for a wireless data plan when you buy it for that to work, so it would essentially be a phone without voice capability (like an iPhone). WTH, why not give it SMS texting tech - THAT would be killer with 12 year old Japanese girls.

I guess being the first dSLR on ATT and Verizon's eqipment list would be cool but good luck getting Mom and Dad to let them add it to the Family Talk Plan.

FluCard let's someone buy the technology once and port it to every following camera they buy rather than paying for it every time.
08-30-2014, 01:34 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
Meh, maybe you should take a peak at real photos instead of dxomark scores?
Step 2 of the disrupter: ad hominem attack. Still won't address Fuji's lies about ISO.
08-30-2014, 01:39 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Those figures are totally bogus. I have a Fuji that I use once in a while and can attest that the ISO is "off" but only by about 1/3 stop from my Pentax.
They also refuse to test recent Fuji cameras. My x100s is also very close to my Pentax in exposure. In the end the person behind the camera means more than a dxomark score.
08-30-2014, 01:41 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
@NicoleC - I get where you are going. ]It would need an EMEI number and you would need to sign up for a wireless data plan when you buy it for that to work, so it would essentially be a phone without voice capability (like an iPhone). WTH, why not give it SMS texting tech - THAT would be killer with 12 year old Japanese girls.

I guess being the first dSLR on ATT and Verizon's eqipment list would be cool but good luck getting Mom and Dad to let them add it to the Family Talk Plan.

FluCard let's someone buy the technology once and port it to every following camera they buy rather than paying for it every time.
Nah, everyone is going to have their phone with them anyway so all you need to do is establish the wifi connection to your phone. No need for cellular capability in the camera, too. And what does wifi add to the cost of a camera... $5, $10? Compare that to $100 for the FluCard.
08-30-2014, 01:52 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by LeeRunge Quote
I guess we'll see when they review the x100s and xt1.
They won't "review" the xt1 because of its non-bayer array. Their reviews grow out of their software support of lens/camera combos. When they start supporting a new camera, they release their analysis of its sensor. However, as far as I can tell, they don't support any x trans cameras.

I don't see any particular indication of bias on the DXO Mark site. They just put their numbers out there. I do think people have become a little over-hyped about Fuji's Jpeg engine. Yes, it is good, but that doesn't mean that similar, or better results aren't possible from other cameras if you shoot RAW and use the right tools.

To me, one of the biggest negatives to Fuji cameras is the poor support the X Tran array gets from third party software companies.
08-30-2014, 02:10 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Nah, everyone is going to have their phone with them anyway so all you need to do is establish the wifi connection to your phone. No need for cellular capability in the camera, too. And what does wifi add to the cost of a camera... $5, $10? Compare that to $100 for the FluCard.
At the factory level what's the cost of a K-S1? (we don't know the actual cost, we know the MSRP including the shipping, markup to the regional distributor, markup to the retailer and markup to the consumer). If you are Canon or Nikon you choose to add the cost of WiFi and delete the cost of . . . . . something Pentax doesn't delete. So we want (or think they should make) a CaNikon camera, but it's different, with Pentax DNA - and advertising and marketing so TargetBestBuyCostCoB&MDealers will stock pallet loads of them - at the same or a better retail price.

It just isn't going to happen.

I don't want WiFi - I don't even want a FluCard. I have a 32Gb EyeFi Pro that does what I need, and only when I (rarely) need that.
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