Hands-on with the Pentax K-S1, $749 body only-- from dpreview.com

**Aristophanes** · 09-01-2014, 06:18 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

I spoke directly, personally, with Jim Malcolm about this (in a conference with ten other PF members posted in the Q Forum). He told me Ricoh had extensive discussions with Apple and others over the course of more than a year, but Ricoh decided they simply weren't willing to comply with (particularly) Apple's requirements if Ricoh was to make use of the API and apps.

Apparently, that decision closed the on-board Wi-Fi door, so they worked with Eye-Fi to develop the card-sensing Menu system and with Flu to develop the card. Ricoh isn't stupid, folks. There's a reason for this solution.

Nikon and Canon and Sony and Samsung are all doing it. The SD card options are an added cost and now Ricoh looks uncompetitive. Odd since Ricoh has long been known for its excellent firmware support, which is primarily what this is.

I smell a cost issue.

---------- Post added 09-01-14 at 10:20 AM ----------

Originally posted by ogl

1. Touchscreen could be switched off in menu of camera
2. Touchscreen's sensitivity is adjustable

But a major point of a touchscreen is to eliminate the tactile control need.

ElJamoquio · 09-01-2014, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by NicoleC

No, that's the hard way.

You have to keep up with any changes in the APIs and new OS version, but you don't have to muck about trying to support hundreds and thousands of hardware devices.

Or you could just send an mms....

**monochrome** · 09-01-2014, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

I smell a cost issue.

Really? I thought Wi-Fi only cost $0.20 to implement (per OGL) or $5 - $10 at retail (per IchabodCrane, corrected).

IMHO Ricoh doesn't want to be tied to constantly updating Firmware on APPLE'S schedule. I suppose the companies you named are large enough, or feel compelled enough, to submit control of their development budgets to their monopolistic overlords.

But clearly, based on the repeated responses to my opinion, I am a benighted old man, living in probably the 19th C.

So nevermind.

ElJamoquio · 09-01-2014, 06:58 AM

So then send an mms.

cfraz · 09-01-2014, 06:59 AM

Originally posted by ogl

In specs
Side by Side Comparison: Digital Photography Review

That same DPR side-by-side comparison also shows the K-50 as a compact SLR and the K-S1 as a Mid-size SLR.

The US Ricoh web site lists polyarbonate over metal chassis for the K-S1.

Kunzite · 09-01-2014, 07:10 AM

DPReview is also saying about the K-S1 that "the remainder of the body is a mix of composite and metal and it feels very solid".

D1N0 · 09-01-2014, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

But a major point of a touchscreen is to eliminate the tactile control need.

The mayor point of a touch screen to me is focussing by touch. (which is why it is more useful on mirror less.

**Aristophanes** · 09-01-2014, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Really? I thought Wi-Fi only cost $0.20 to implement (per OGL) or $5 - $10 at retail (per IchabodCrane, corrected).

IMHO Ricoh doesn't want to be tied to constantly updating Firmware on APPLE'S schedule. I suppose the companies you named are large enough, or feel compelled enough, to submit control of their development budgets to their monopolistic overlords.

But clearly, based on the repeated responses to my opinion, I am a benighted old man, living in probably the 19th C.

So nevermind.

Wi-fi doesn't depend on Apple's schedule. The APIs for mobile OS and desktop OS are the problems as it commits camera makers to app creation and maintenance.

Al they need is an app that says: "talk to Pentax camera and put in camera roll of applicable device". Keep in mind the new iOS 8 will accept RAW. Since Pentax uses DNG our brand already has a headstart.

I suspect Pentax and others want what Apple does now and that is to put RAW conversion at the OS-level. I have spoken to Apple engineers and they find this enormously convoluted wight he camera makers hardly able to communicate.

you can see this on the K-S1. Hardware engineered LEDs and backlighting.

---------- Post added 09-01-14 at 12:00 PM ----------

Originally posted by D1N0

The mayor point of a touch screen to me is focussing by touch. (which is why it is more useful on mirror less.

Right. Thereby eliminating the need for a control wheel to select focus points. One or the other.

D1N0 · 09-01-2014, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

Right. Thereby eliminating the need for a control wheel to select focus points. One or the other.

cd-focus uses the sensor, you won't be using your phase detect, unless the sensor has phase detect points. You will not be using your touch screen while looking through the ovf so you will always need tactile controls for moving your AF-point.

NicoleC · 09-01-2014, 08:24 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

I spoke directly, personally, with Jim Malcolm about this (in a conference with ten other PF members posted in the Q Forum). He told me Ricoh had extensive discussions with Apple and others over the course of more than a year, but Ricoh decided they simply weren't willing to comply with (particularly) Apple's requirements if Ricoh was to make use of the API and apps.

Apparently, that decision closed the on-board Wi-Fi door, so they worked with Eye-Fi to develop the card-sensing Menu system and with Flu to develop the card. Ricoh isn't stupid, folks. There's a reason for this solution.

I can understand those reasons from a development perspective, but from a consumer standpoint the Flu card is a poor and expensive alternative. It adds $100 to the cost for a feature that many customers are coming to expect standard in gadgets. Unless I had an existing catalog of Pentax lenses, why would an upper-entry level consumer choose the KS-1 over the WI-FI enabled Nikon D5300, which also has an articulating screen, GPS ($249 extra from Pentax), three colors and of course "more megapixels"? The specific colors of the KS-1? The LED lights on the front?

I'm sure they have crunched the numbers and think they know how many sales they will lose, but it's hard to put a value on being perceived as low tech in a field where they certainly aren't.

Personally, I was very disappointed with the remote control options offered by the Flu card. I hope they don't think they are done with it if that's where they are pinning their WiFi hopes.

Kunzite · 09-01-2014, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

So then send an mms.

To whom?

NicoleC · 09-01-2014, 08:28 AM

P.S. With a 7% desktop and 11% smartphone market share worldwide, choosing not to support Apple is a viable option. It would hurt in the US (42% iPhone market) and Japan (57% iPhone market), but the market share of iPhones is on a steady downward trend anyway.

ElJamoquio · 09-01-2014, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

To whom?

Facebook. Instagram. Your wife.*

*only valid in case of Kunzite.

---------- Post added 09-01-14 at 08:30 AM ----------

Originally posted by NicoleC

P.S. With a 7% desktop and 11% smartphone market share worldwide, choosing not to support Apple is a viable option. It would hurt in the US (42% iPhone market) and Japan (57% iPhone market), but the market share of iPhones is on a steady downward trend anyway.

That's % of the smartphone market. I don't know what % of phones are smartphones now, but it seems like the majority.

Kunzite · 09-01-2014, 08:38 AM

Interesting, it appears you can indeed MMS to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. You only need to include GSM support (and comply with the appropriate regulations), and have a data plan. And a parallel system will be needed, to save on your data plan if a WiFi is nearby. And radio interference might be an issue.
Thanks, I learned something new (though I'm not using any of those 3).

**monochrome** · 09-01-2014, 09:00 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by NicoleC

Personally, I was very disappointed with the remote control options offered by the Flu card. I hope they don't think they are done with it if that's where they are pinning their WiFi hopes.

Who knows - maybe Flu/Pentax was a lost-cost placeholder until iOS8. IIRC there was some mention of RAW in the discussion. Given the balance of Ricoh's USA consumer strategy (lack of: big box store distribution, supporting ads to drive sell-through, celebrity brand-identity endorsements) maybe they don't really care about the western entry level market at all.

I'm beginning to think not caring about the US consumer is a Thing now.

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09-01-2014, 06:18 AM - 1 Like	#196
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by monochrome I spoke directly, personally, with Jim Malcolm about this (in a conference with ten other PF members posted in the Q Forum). He told me Ricoh had extensive discussions with Apple and others over the course of more than a year, but Ricoh decided they simply weren't willing to comply with (particularly) Apple's requirements if Ricoh was to make use of the API and apps. Apparently, that decision closed the on-board Wi-Fi door, so they worked with Eye-Fi to develop the card-sensing Menu system and with Flu to develop the card. Ricoh isn't stupid, folks. There's a reason for this solution. Nikon and Canon and Sony and Samsung are all doing it. The SD card options are an added cost and now Ricoh looks uncompetitive. Odd since Ricoh has long been known for its excellent firmware support, which is primarily what this is. I smell a cost issue. ---------- Post added 09-01-14 at 10:20 AM ---------- Originally posted by ogl 1. Touchscreen could be switched off in menu of camera 2. Touchscreen's sensitivity is adjustable But a major point of a touchscreen is to eliminate the tactile control need.

09-01-2014, 06:48 AM	#197
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by NicoleC No, that's the hard way. You have to keep up with any changes in the APIs and new OS version, but you don't have to muck about trying to support hundreds and thousands of hardware devices. Or you could just send an mms....

09-01-2014, 06:54 AM	#198
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Aristophanes I smell a cost issue. Really? I thought Wi-Fi only cost $0.20 to implement (per OGL) or $5 - $10 at retail (per IchabodCrane, corrected). IMHO Ricoh doesn't want to be tied to constantly updating Firmware on APPLE'S schedule. I suppose the companies you named are large enough, or feel compelled enough, to submit control of their development budgets to their monopolistic overlords. But clearly, based on the repeated responses to my opinion, I am a benighted old man, living in probably the 19th C. So nevermind.

09-01-2014, 06:58 AM	#199
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	So then send an mms.

09-01-2014, 06:59 AM	#200
cfraz Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 521	Originally posted by ogl In specs Side by Side Comparison: Digital Photography Review That same DPR side-by-side comparison also shows the K-50 as a compact SLR and the K-S1 as a Mid-size SLR. The US Ricoh web site lists polyarbonate over metal chassis for the K-S1.

09-01-2014, 07:10 AM	#201
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	DPReview is also saying about the K-S1 that "the remainder of the body is a mix of composite and metal and it feels very solid".

09-01-2014, 07:19 AM	#202
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Aristophanes But a major point of a touchscreen is to eliminate the tactile control need. The mayor point of a touch screen to me is focussing by touch. (which is why it is more useful on mirror less.

09-01-2014, 07:59 AM	#203
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by monochrome Really? I thought Wi-Fi only cost $0.20 to implement (per OGL) or $5 - $10 at retail (per IchabodCrane, corrected). IMHO Ricoh doesn't want to be tied to constantly updating Firmware on APPLE'S schedule. I suppose the companies you named are large enough, or feel compelled enough, to submit control of their development budgets to their monopolistic overlords. But clearly, based on the repeated responses to my opinion, I am a benighted old man, living in probably the 19th C. So nevermind. Wi-fi doesn't depend on Apple's schedule. The APIs for mobile OS and desktop OS are the problems as it commits camera makers to app creation and maintenance. Al they need is an app that says: "talk to Pentax camera and put in camera roll of applicable device". Keep in mind the new iOS 8 will accept RAW. Since Pentax uses DNG our brand already has a headstart. I suspect Pentax and others want what Apple does now and that is to put RAW conversion at the OS-level. I have spoken to Apple engineers and they find this enormously convoluted wight he camera makers hardly able to communicate. you can see this on the K-S1. Hardware engineered LEDs and backlighting. ---------- Post added 09-01-14 at 12:00 PM ---------- Originally posted by D1N0 The mayor point of a touch screen to me is focussing by touch. (which is why it is more useful on mirror less. Right. Thereby eliminating the need for a control wheel to select focus points. One or the other.

09-01-2014, 08:12 AM	#204
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Aristophanes Right. Thereby eliminating the need for a control wheel to select focus points. One or the other. cd-focus uses the sensor, you won't be using your phase detect, unless the sensor has phase detect points. You will not be using your touch screen while looking through the ovf so you will always need tactile controls for moving your AF-point.

09-01-2014, 08:24 AM - 1 Like	#205
NicoleC Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Madison, AL Posts: 448	Originally posted by monochrome I spoke directly, personally, with Jim Malcolm about this (in a conference with ten other PF members posted in the Q Forum). He told me Ricoh had extensive discussions with Apple and others over the course of more than a year, but Ricoh decided they simply weren't willing to comply with (particularly) Apple's requirements if Ricoh was to make use of the API and apps. Apparently, that decision closed the on-board Wi-Fi door, so they worked with Eye-Fi to develop the card-sensing Menu system and with Flu to develop the card. Ricoh isn't stupid, folks. There's a reason for this solution. I can understand those reasons from a development perspective, but from a consumer standpoint the Flu card is a poor and expensive alternative. It adds $100 to the cost for a feature that many customers are coming to expect standard in gadgets. Unless I had an existing catalog of Pentax lenses, why would an upper-entry level consumer choose the KS-1 over the WI-FI enabled Nikon D5300, which also has an articulating screen, GPS ($249 extra from Pentax), three colors and of course "more megapixels"? The specific colors of the KS-1? The LED lights on the front? I'm sure they have crunched the numbers and think they know how many sales they will lose, but it's hard to put a value on being perceived as low tech in a field where they certainly aren't. Personally, I was very disappointed with the remote control options offered by the Flu card. I hope they don't think they are done with it if that's where they are pinning their WiFi hopes.

09-01-2014, 08:26 AM	#206
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by ElJamoquio So then send an mms. To whom?

09-01-2014, 08:28 AM	#207
NicoleC Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Madison, AL Posts: 448	P.S. With a 7% desktop and 11% smartphone market share worldwide, choosing not to support Apple is a viable option. It would hurt in the US (42% iPhone market) and Japan (57% iPhone market), but the market share of iPhones is on a steady downward trend anyway.

09-01-2014, 08:29 AM	#208
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Kunzite To whom? Facebook. Instagram. Your wife.* *only valid in case of Kunzite. ---------- Post added 09-01-14 at 08:30 AM ---------- Originally posted by NicoleC P.S. With a 7% desktop and 11% smartphone market share worldwide, choosing not to support Apple is a viable option. It would hurt in the US (42% iPhone market) and Japan (57% iPhone market), but the market share of iPhones is on a steady downward trend anyway. That's % of the smartphone market. I don't know what % of phones are smartphones now, but it seems like the majority.

09-01-2014, 08:38 AM	#209
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Interesting, it appears you can indeed MMS to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. You only need to include GSM support (and comply with the appropriate regulations), and have a data plan. And a parallel system will be needed, to save on your data plan if a WiFi is nearby. And radio interference might be an issue. Thanks, I learned something new (though I'm not using any of those 3).

09-01-2014, 09:00 AM - 1 Like	#210
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by NicoleC Personally, I was very disappointed with the remote control options offered by the Flu card. I hope they don't think they are done with it if that's where they are pinning their WiFi hopes. Who knows - maybe Flu/Pentax was a lost-cost placeholder until iOS8. IIRC there was some mention of RAW in the discussion. Given the balance of Ricoh's USA consumer strategy (lack of: big box store distribution, supporting ads to drive sell-through, celebrity brand-identity endorsements) maybe they don't really care about the western entry level market at all. I'm beginning to think not caring about the US consumer is a Thing now.