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09-13-2014, 11:02 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Look for yourself on flicker home page:

https://www.flickr.com/cameras/apple/iphone_5s/

2:

Sycamore, Sabino Canyon, December reflection
by allophile, on Flickr


Mini pencils
by Lindsey Thompson (Lindsey76), on Flickr

It is easy to criticize and deny reality. The reality is that most smart phone can take good photos in many situation that are quite good except maybe for shallow deph of field. Some will wine after the low light capabilities but many love film and this one had no stellar low like capabilities back then. Not long ago a 200-300$ compact was worse for everything except zoom.

But smart phones are camera that take phone call, take photos, movies, include instant and intuitive editing of the photo, possibility to send/receive mail, read the news, serve as GPS navigation system, a game console, a music player, act as PDA (you can look at your calendar for next meeting or take notes).

When you already have something like that that available all the time with you, if you decide to buy a dedicated camera, this one has to bring much more to be of any value. I have taken a few photos with my iphone and at least some of them where really nice.

My father did a calendar of one of the photos my mother liked best when she was in terminal phase of cancer... My father love photography, he had many camera back from the 70 with pentax, M135, M50 & M28... He later brough more gear, then got digtal with istDL... Now he has a K30... I have myself K3 before K5. I now have DA15, DA21, DA35, FA50, FA77, DA50-135 & DA17-70. I don't even use anymore the 17-70 as I prefer my primes much better.

Still... When my father selected the shoots to keep and print to my mother, a few where from my iphone. Because the iphone was simply here in the pocket to take the shoot. Because it is far more important to have the good light, the good subject and the good framing than to have the perfect camera.


Another guy did wedding photos with iphone only and edited with iphone only. How crap, many pro shooting D4s or whatever is the most expensive and advenced at the moment would cry to be able to take so great shoots showing the event, the emotions of the persons that well. He finished at 4 position in a photo contest. For sure this guy now his job as a school of photography teacher, but for me it just show that we shouldn't be that focussed on gear and more of the photos we take !
You don't get it, the problem is not that phone is a bad tool for photography, the problem is how it's used.

09-14-2014, 01:23 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
SmartPhones are today's Instamatics. With FlashCubes.
Except you don't have to buy those expensive flash cubes, and the flash doubles as a flash light :-)

I had an Instamatic. The detail of even an iPhone 4 is much, much better. The DR of the small sensor isn't always comparable to film, but in every other respect, the smartphones are far better cameras. More like decent 35mm compacts.
09-14-2014, 02:47 AM - 1 Like   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Well, OK, but what's your point? It's still the only camera carried by the vast majority of average middle class people. If they didn't still have a functional compact in the back of a drawer some where it would be the only camera owned by the vast majority of average middle class people.

It is capable of faultlessly taking a photograph within limited exposure boundaries that were no doubt defined to match the sort of photographs the vast majority of average middle class people take, just like an Instamatic.

As such, the iPhone is a boring, ubiquitous, average camera that's perfect for boring, ubiquitous, average middle class people.

Like me.

Which is why there are so many iPhone Flickr photos.
But it doesn't prevent one to make a good photo with them.

---------- Post added 09-14-14 at 12:01 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by i83N Quote
You don't get it, the problem is not that phone is a bad tool for photography, the problem is how it's used.
So then the criticism shouldn't be after the phone, but more after the user...

And even; the average person making the average shoot on his smartphone does nothing that can be criticized as soon he doesn't pretend to be an artist while doing so or a pro photographer. smartphones shooters should not be more ashamed that one writing to just remember what buy at the grocery while other write literature...

We speak of tool and usage. Photographic is first a tool and only after an art. Exactly like writing. There lot of use as just a tool for both and there are in the same area of recording memories. Photography and writing as tools revolutionned humanity. As art, is was just an alternative to painting like writing was to storytelling.

A few may care of the creativity, artistic value, but while interresting, it is secondary to most people. When you gather evidence as a policeman, when you want to describe accurately a plant or a rock as a scientific, when you just want to record the idea you drawed on the white board at work or when you want a picture of a person on his ID card this is just a tool. Even when you take photos of your own life, this is just a tool to remember. And there nothing wrong with that.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 09-14-2014 at 03:02 AM.
09-14-2014, 06:52 AM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
But it doesn't prevent one to make a good photo with them.

---------- Post added 09-14-14 at 12:01 PM ----------



So then the criticism shouldn't be after the phone, but more after the user...

And even; the average person making the average shoot on his smartphone does nothing that can be criticized as soon he doesn't pretend to be an artist while doing so or a pro photographer. smartphones shooters should not be more ashamed that one writing to just remember what buy at the grocery while other write literature...

We speak of tool and usage. Photographic is first a tool and only after an art. Exactly like writing. There lot of use as just a tool for both and there are in the same area of recording memories. Photography and writing as tools revolutionned humanity. As art, is was just an alternative to painting like writing was to storytelling.

A few may care of the creativity, artistic value, but while interresting, it is secondary to most people. When you gather evidence as a policeman, when you want to describe accurately a plant or a rock as a scientific, when you just want to record the idea you drawed on the white board at work or when you want a picture of a person on his ID card this is just a tool. Even when you take photos of your own life, this is just a tool to remember. And there nothing wrong with that.
Excellent point! And very well expressed!

09-14-2014, 06:52 AM   #140
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You still don't get it. Any of you.

That the iPhone is the most used camera has absolutely nothing to do with picture quality or engineering or the technology of today versus 1968. For 1968 the Instamatic was really pretty amazing technology at the price. Cheap enough that virtually anyone could have one and take a Thanksgiving picture.

And that's the point of the SmartPhone. Nobody buys a SmartPhone for the camera. No one says, "Hey, I think I'll go get that camera that comes with the phone and internet included. (Someone is going to reply that yes, people do buy these devices for the camera, which misses the point again).

The camera is virtually free.

But once they have it - especially younger people - once it is in their purses, just like an Instamatic, they document every little gathering. Just like they did with an Instamatic.

That they can share those images over the internet is merely an accident of today's technology.

An iPhone is today's Instamatic.
09-14-2014, 08:09 AM   #141
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I don't know that the instamatic was the added value item to another device though.

The way I see it, the advantage of the smartphone is that it's also a thousand other tools at the same time.

These tools add value to the device.

And frankly just speaking about the image quality, they are quite good.

And while I agree with much of Nicolas06 wrote, I don't see why a pro could not do "art" with such a device. I actually know a few pros who shoot very artful pictures with smartphones. It's the aptitudes and knowledge more than the tool imho.
09-14-2014, 08:10 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You still don't get it. Any of you.

That the iPhone is the most used camera has absolutely nothing to do with picture quality or engineering or the technology of today versus 1968. For 1968 the Instamatic was really pretty amazing technology at the price. Cheap enough that virtually anyone could have one and take a Thanksgiving picture.

And that's the point of the SmartPhone. Nobody buys a SmartPhone for the camera. No one says, "Hey, I think I'll go get that camera that comes with the phone and internet included. (Someone is going to reply that yes, people do buy these devices for the camera, which misses the point again).

The camera is virtually free.

But once they have it - especially younger people - once it is in their purses, just like an Instamatic, they document every little gathering. Just like they did with an Instamatic.

That they can share those images over the internet is merely an accident of today's technology.

An iPhone is today's Instamatic.
Yeah of course some use it for everything like some take photo of everything with their reflex too. This is just much more conveniant and practival with the smartphone and there much more persons with smartphone than reflex but in the end, I see nothing bad with that.

And in practive, BECAUSE it is good enough and practical, many don't even think to buy a compact anymore, even more they don't want a big reflex. Sales go down as enthousiast have already their gear and other doesn't care as their smartphone come with a camera included that outside zoom capability is a good as 100-150$ camera.
09-14-2014, 08:22 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
That would be difficult. Pentax users are too busy bashing the brand and Pentax products on various fora to be able to spend some time creating useable content.

But please don't give any the idea to combine the two enterprises...

09-14-2014, 09:09 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Yeah of course some use it for everything like some take photo of everything with their reflex too. This is just much more conveniant and practival with the smartphone and there much more persons with smartphone than reflex but in the end, I see nothing bad with that.
There's a "small" forgotten detail; sure, smartphones are convenient and practical - only because you'd always have one with you, and perhaps it's connectivity. Surely, one can take decent images with certain smartphones; but can you change the angle of view? Can you focus closely? Use them obediently within their limitations, and it will be fine; but don't even think of wanting more - if you do, you'll discover how terribly impractical and inconvenient they can be.
That's why I'm comparing smartphones with disposable cameras; popular, suitable for most uninformed shooters (and some informed ones), very limited in what they can do.

By the way, why are we even discussing smartphones on the General Pentax Forums / Pentax News and Rumors / Ricoh WG-M1?
09-14-2014, 09:58 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Yeah of course some use it for everything like some take photo of everything with their reflex too. This is just much more conveniant and practival with the smartphone and there much more persons with smartphone than reflex but in the end, I see nothing bad with that.

And in practive, BECAUSE it is good enough and practical, many don't even think to buy a compact anymore, even more they don't want a big reflex. Sales go down as enthousiast have already their gear and other doesn't care as their smartphone come with a camera included that outside zoom capability is a good as 100-150$ camera.
Yes, that's closer to the point - but . . . ..

For close to a decade, ended roughly 2Q2012, the cool, cool kiddies wanted a big, black reflex. Now the cool, cool kiddies want a Sony slab of aluminum. Who knows what they'll want next, Lytro? I'm not talking about enthusiast or artists or cool, cool kiddies.

I'm talking about the great mass of middle class people who don't want to or know how to take an artful photograph. They have replaced their compacts (the previous analogs for the Instamatic) with the camera app on a SmartPhone,

The drop in dSLR sales from their peak, which was something like a ten-fold increase over a decade, to just a seven-fold increase (dSLR sales are still astounding, just not quite so astounding as they were) is largely caused by something other than the SmartPhone
09-14-2014, 10:42 AM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
As such, the iPhone is a boring, ubiquitous, average camera that's perfect for boring, ubiquitous, average middle class people.
I don't use my android phone for boring stuff. To be honest, I do my edgy stuff with the phone:







Thread hijack over...I think it is time to put a record on the turntable and relax...


Steve

---------- Post added 09-14-14 at 10:44 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
in every other respect, the smartphones are far better cameras. More like decent 35mm compacts.
Absolutely! My Olympus XA sees very little use anymore as a result.


Steve

---------- Post added 09-14-14 at 10:47 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Nobody buys a SmartPhone for the camera.
You haven't been hanging around the non-Pentax section of this site have you. Hardly a week goes by where someone doesn't post about the newest and best phone camera.


Steve

---------- Post added 09-14-14 at 10:50 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
By the way, why are we even discussing smartphones on the General Pentax Forums / Pentax News and Rumors / Ricoh WG-M1?
Because there is only so much you can say about a product that nobody has ever seen or used.


Steve
09-14-2014, 11:28 AM - 1 Like   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)
Surely, one can take decent images with certain smartphones; but can you change the angle of view? Can you focus closely?
(...)
Yes you can, thanks to the 'digital zoom', which is more than convenient to users.
09-14-2014, 12:39 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Yes you can, thanks to the 'digital zoom', which is more than convenient to users.
ROTFL, well there's a whole of cr*p which is convenient to users. I won't say it is no argument but it isn't a weighty one either.
09-14-2014, 12:41 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
There's a "small" forgotten detail; sure, smartphones are convenient and practical - only because you'd always have one with you, and perhaps it's connectivity. Surely, one can take decent images with certain smartphones; but can you change the angle of view? Can you focus closely? Use them obediently within their limitations, and it will be fine; but don't even think of wanting more - if you do, you'll discover how terribly impractical and inconvenient they can be.
That's why I'm comparing smartphones with disposable cameras; popular, suitable for most uninformed shooters (and some informed ones), very limited in what they can do.

By the way, why are we even discussing smartphones on the General Pentax Forums / Pentax News and Rumors / Ricoh WG-M1?
Can you focus closely?
Typically yes... And stupid macro lens capabilties are sold for a few euros if that's important for you.

Can you change the angle of view?

No less than on X100S that enthousiat buy a good share or money, no less than thoses explaining their FA31 stay all the time on their K5. I will not explain to you how one can move arround the subject to frame the shoot and how primes are considered as creative tools by many! Again if that important to you, for a few euros, you'll get a tele or UWA lens to fit on your smartphone.

But with the base phone you can already take panoramas and use digital zoom, meaning you cover eveything from 360 to a say normal focal lens or very moderate tele. But the native focal lens, typically arround 35mm FF equivalent, can adapt to many situations.

So yes it is limited in some aspect, as any tool is, but it isn't that bad.

Not saying I'am thinking of that especially for me. But I do not appreciate the implicit or even explicit lack of respect for the "unimformed" that use theses basic tools.
09-14-2014, 02:38 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Yes you can, thanks to the 'digital zoom', which is more than convenient to users.
No, you can't; you can crop just a little - but starting with a wide angle, there's only so much you can do.
Mind you, the argument was that smartphones are the new Instamatic/disposable cameras, and cannot replace "real cameras" in versatility. I never said they're not convenient, or that you can't - within limitations - get decent images.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Can you focus closely?
Typically yes... And stupid macro lens capabilties are sold for a few euros if that's important for you.
Typically no (lunch pictures doesn't count as "close focus" images). And if you start talking about adding stupid capabilities, then you admit a smartphone can't be made into a real camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Can you change the angle of view?

No less than on X100S that enthousiat buy a good share or money, no less than thoses explaining their FA31 stay all the time on their K5. I will not explain to you how one can move arround the subject to frame the shoot and how primes are considered as creative tools by many! Again if that important to you, for a few euros, you'll get a tele or UWA lens to fit on your smartphone.
You don't understand. It's one thing to be able to choose from a large range of focal lengths but prefer a certain prime, and have only some lousy wide angle (lousy because it needs to be small). With the real cameras, you don't have to degrade the image quality even further, by using dubious attachments - you can get the right lens for the job.
A mere 35-to-70mm crop means throwing away 3/4 of the image.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Not saying I'am thinking of that especially for me. But I do not appreciate the implicit or even explicit lack of respect for the "unimformed" that use theses basic tools.
Well, you were on a roll trying to prove that smartphones can beat "real 135mm cameras" - by claiming the latter didn't had viewfinders, AF and metering

You misread what I wrote as lack of respect, so I'll ask you - do you think the average Facebook-posting-of-lunches, duck-face-Instagramming smartphone camera user has some basic (self)training in photography? Would he/she know what a SLR could do over a smartphone? Even having held such a camera is unlikely.
I specifically mentioned all the others as "some informed users" (they are important, but IMHO much fewer) but I see you skipped that.

P.S. Since we're on the WG-M1's topic, I'll add another limitation: underwater usage, with its two aspects:
- being able to work underwater (some smartphones are water resistant, not sure it there is any who can do 1h at 10m)
- being able to be used underwater, and here we're talking touch screens.
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