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01-13-2015, 06:23 AM   #826
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QuoteOriginally posted by harrisonww Quote
how about this lens for 350 or a similar zoom range with a 2.8 for 1000-2000.
If it were feasible to build a 16-85mm f2.8, or even a 17-70mm f2.8, someone would have done so by now.

I just ordered a Sigma 17-50mm f2.8 for $514 Canadian. I have a DA 18-135, which is a more useful range for me than 16-85mm.

01-13-2015, 06:53 AM   #827
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
If it were feasible to build a 16-85mm f2.8, or even a 17-70mm f2.8, someone would have done so by now.

I just ordered a Sigma 17-50mm f2.8 for $514 Canadian. I have a DA 18-135, which is a more useful range for me than 16-85mm.
I think this is feasible to make at least a 17-70 f/2.8 or at least something that start 18-20mm and finish 70-75mm and is f/2.8. Sigma showed that you can make f/1.8 zoom and I'am sure before guys here would have said exactly the same: if an f/1.8 zoom was possible it would already exist.

We have already 17-70 f/2.8-4, 24-70 f/2.8, 17-50 f/2.8 or 28-75 f/2.8.

We are not that far from 18-70 f/2.8 but could the payoff from R&D could be justified? Can it be sold for $2000 even through it would be an APSC design and size of 18-35 f/1.8 at least?
01-13-2015, 06:54 AM - 1 Like   #828
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QuoteOriginally posted by harrisonww Quote
I feel like if pentax wants to release lenses that are expensive they have to have a pretty strong case of IQ, bokeh, or Fast aperture.
Yes, and apparently it does have good IQ and bokeh.

QuoteQuote:
... This lens is 3.5-5.6 ? Where am I going to use a 5.6 indoors?
Um, what made you think it's designed for the indoors? Is it the 16-85 focal range? Is it the weather sealing?

QuoteQuote:
I would not pay 800+ dollars for this lens because i shoot alot of indoors and I like primes. [...] I havent used my 18-55 kit lens since I bought my first 50mm prime and that was a long time ago.
So the 16-85 doesn't fit your lens kit, alright.

QuoteQuote:
I would love to own an awesome zoom for carrying around but not a 3.5-5.6 for 800 dollars. how about this lens for 350 or a similar zoom range with a 2.8 for 1000-2000.
Do you see any competitor either selling a similar lens for $350 or a 16-85 f/2.8 (for any price)? No? Then I guess there must be a reason.

QuoteQuote:
16-50mm alot of people will comment back to this and say this is the option. SDM is a peice of junk. Im sure there are some that have working copys but just reading from b&h and adorma and hearing the guys from henrys in canada talk about failures I would never buy one!
I think I read somewhere that SDM failures are only an issue with older lenses and that all of the recently produced lenses are fine.
01-13-2015, 07:03 AM - 1 Like   #829
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QuoteOriginally posted by harrisonww Quote
Where am I going to use a 5.6 indoors?
Why on Earth do you consider this an indoors lens?

Call it whatever you want : walkaround, travel, hiking, outdoors, sports... it's a lens meant to be used when you expect inclement conditions, don't expect to be able to change lenses often, can't carry a lot of gear, and still want good images. Oh and also, Pentax has the 16-50 f2.8 if you want fast WR, but it's more expensive.

If you want an indoors lens, Pentax has numerous fantastic primes for you. If you want a fast zoom, there are many too (they are also WR for when that's needed). But please, don't expect the 16-85 to be an indoors lens.

01-13-2015, 07:15 AM   #830
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5.6 can be used indoors depending on the light available (bear in mind I live in a very bright country). Then there is flash. I lived with 5.6 on K100DS for 7 years and took a lot of indoors photos. (ok, the ones without flash mostly sucked but then I didn't have ISO 6400 to go to).
01-13-2015, 07:30 AM   #831
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Do you see any competitor either selling a similar lens for $350 or a 16-85 f/2.8 (for any price)? No? Then I guess there must be a reason.
How about for $299?

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens 9517A002 B&H Photo Video

---------- Post added 01-13-15 at 09:33 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I think this is feasible to make at least a 17-70 f/2.8 or at least something that start 18-20mm and finish 70-75mm and is f/2.8. Sigma showed that you can make f/1.8 zoom and I'am sure before guys here would have said exactly the same: if an f/1.8 zoom was possible it would already exist.

We have already 17-70 f/2.8-4, 24-70 f/2.8, 17-50 f/2.8 or 28-75 f/2.8.

We are not that far from 18-70 f/2.8 but could the payoff from R&D could be justified? Can it be sold for $2000 even through it would be an APSC design and size of 18-35 f/1.8 at least?
What's allowed lenses to get smaller is the acceptance of distortion and the correction for it by software. For practical purposes, this is why the DA 17-70 is a bigger lens than the DA 18-135.
01-13-2015, 08:08 AM   #832
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I think this is feasible to make at least a 17-70 f/2.8 or at least something that start 18-20mm and finish 70-75mm and is f/2.8. Sigma showed that you can make f/1.8 zoom and I'am sure before guys here would have said exactly the same: if an f/1.8 zoom was possible it would already exist.

We have already 17-70 f/2.8-4, 24-70 f/2.8, 17-50 f/2.8 or 28-75 f/2.8.

We are not that far from 18-70 f/2.8 but could the payoff from R&D could be justified? Can it be sold for $2000 even through it would be an APSC design and size of 18-35 f/1.8 at least?
The 18-35mm is a 2X zoom, the f2.8 lenses above are 3X. There is no f2.8, 4X zoom for APS-C or FF that I am aware of.

When I say "feasible", I mean size, IQ, and cost. There is no point of making a lens you can't sell. That is why Canon, Nikon, Sigma, Tamron, Pentax, Zeiss or Sony have not done this.
01-13-2015, 08:45 AM   #833
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
The 18-35mm is a 2X zoom, the f2.8 lenses above are 3X. There is no f2.8, 4X zoom for APS-C or FF that I am aware of.

When I say "feasible", I mean size, IQ, and cost. There is no point of making a lens you can't sell. That is why Canon, Nikon, Sigma, Tamron, Pentax, Zeiss or Sony have not done this.
Sure that many would have also concluded that for 18-35 before it was made by Sigma

01-13-2015, 08:49 AM   #834
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
How about for $299?

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens 9517A002 B&H Photo Video

---------- Post added 01-13-15 at 09:33 AM ----------



What's allowed lenses to get smaller is the acceptance of distortion and the correction for it by software. For practical purposes, this is why the DA 17-70 is a bigger lens than the DA 18-135.

that one starts at 17mm, so you should be looking at the nikon Nikon 16-85mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR AF-S DX Nikkor Lens 2178 B&H a bit more expensive (and yes in that range, the 1mm will make a big difference). (and on the canon there is now savings, not the nikon. So there must be something else going on with the canon, so not a fair comparison)

well, I think the 17-70 is bigger, as it has a constant aperture. That will always make a lens bigger
01-13-2015, 08:56 AM   #835
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QuoteOriginally posted by cxdoo Quote
5.6 can be used indoors depending on the light available (bear in mind I live in a very bright country). Then there is flash. I lived with 5.6 on K100DS for 7 years and took a lot of indoors photos. (ok, the ones without flash mostly sucked but then I didn't have ISO 6400 to go to).
For sure it can be used indoors. The apperture is also for deph of field. If you want a whole scene to be in focus, you are not going to use f/1.4 or even f/2.8.

Indoors the lighting is often so-so and using flashes increase quality more than ultimate deph of field. It is enough to see the many studio shoot taken at f/8 to see that is possible to get nice result closed down.

In many place, the lighting is bad, not as not enough, but bad quality... Only flashes will help to really solve the issue.

With the flash of the body + an external cobra flash you can already get very far.
01-13-2015, 09:31 AM   #836
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QuoteOriginally posted by harrisonww Quote
Nikon 16-85mm f3.5-5.6 619.00 (I found the exact same lens as pentax...) Fast af, VR , 7 blades So pentax lens cost 130USD more, maybe because its new.
Yes, the fact that the Nikon is older does help reduce the price, as the price of lenses that have been in production for a while tend to slip from the MSRP over time. I believe the MSRP of the Nikon is around $700. The MSRP of the Canon 15-85 f3.5-5.6 is $800. So $750 is not an unreasonable price for the DA 16-85. Don't be fooled by the f3.5-5.6 aperture. The DA 16-85 is not a cheap budget or kit lens. It's more of a mid-range/prosumer type of offering. It features a weather and dust resistant construction and HD nano coating technology -- which alone puts it ahead of the Nikon and Canon versions. The slow aperture is utilized to keep the weight and cost of the lens within reasonable limits, while still producing a lens of very good quality, perfectly suited for nature, landscape, travel, and other miscellaneous outdoor photography.
01-13-2015, 11:16 AM   #837
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Yes, the fact that the Nikon is older does help reduce the price, as the price of lenses that have been in production for a while tend to slip from the MSRP over time. I believe the MSRP of the Nikon is around $700. The MSRP of the Canon 15-85 f3.5-5.6 is $800. So $750 is not an unreasonable price for the DA 16-85. Don't be fooled by the f3.5-5.6 aperture. The DA 16-85 is not a cheap budget or kit lens. It's more of a mid-range/prosumer type of offering. It features a weather and dust resistant construction and HD nano coating technology -- which alone puts it ahead of the Nikon and Canon versions. The slow aperture is utilized to keep the weight and cost of the lens within reasonable limits, while still producing a lens of very good quality, perfectly suited for nature, landscape, travel, and other miscellaneous outdoor photography.
Ah, if that were only true of Pentax Ltd and DA* lenses.
01-13-2015, 11:18 AM   #838
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Ah, if that were only true of Pentax Ltd and DA* lenses.
Their price slips too. Up.
01-13-2015, 12:06 PM - 2 Likes   #839
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The reason why it slipped up was because HOYA was trying to sell as much stock as it could before they divulged the business and took what they really wanted, the medical optics part of pentax. Ricoh realized this was unsustainable, and changed the prices to actually make a profit on optics. You can sell bodies closer to cost to gain user base but selling lenses is the only way to create profit and creating profit is the only way to pay for development. You can thank those higher prices for all the development that has happened since. Oh like the 16-85mm, the K3, 645z, DA 645 lenses, the new kit lens, and the new teli zooms.
01-13-2015, 12:58 PM   #840
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
The reason why it slipped up was because HOYA was trying to sell as much stock as it could before they divulged the business and took what they really wanted, the medical optics part of pentax. Ricoh realized this was unsustainable, and changed the prices to actually make a profit on optics. You can sell bodies closer to cost to gain user base but selling lenses is the only way to create profit and creating profit is the only way to pay for development. You can thank those higher prices for all the development that has happened since. Oh like the 16-85mm, the K3, 645z, DA 645 lenses, the new kit lens, and the new teli zooms.
If this is true then we shouldn't expect price declines on the DA 16-85, either.
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