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01-29-2015, 02:17 AM   #901
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
When the DA 50 1.8 first came out it sold for over 250 dollars and people complained because the Canon 50 1.8 could be bought for 100.

So it's all deja vu all over again, every time Pentax releases a lens.

If you think it's expensive don't buy it. Wait a couple years and it will probably be selling for 599 by then. and 499 on the bi-anual sales.
Yes, many people seem not to understand that. Ricoh has been doing that for multiple product cycles now. There was much gnashing of teeth when the K-S1 launched pricier than the K-50, and I've already predicted that when this (presumed) K-50 replacement shows up nipping at the K-3's heels pricewise, the wailing will start again.

The only good argument I've heard against the start-high-then-drop pricing model is that initial reviews will base their value judgment at the product's highest lifetime price, which will then be written in stone (or bits, I guess) and often incorporated in the final score/recommendation.

01-29-2015, 03:26 AM   #902
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
When the DA 50 1.8 first came out it sold for over 250 dollars and people complained because the Canon 50 1.8 could be bought for 100.

So it's all deja vu all over again, every time Pentax releases a lens.

If you think it's expensive don't buy it. Wait a couple years and it will probably be selling for 599 by then. and 499 on the bi-anual sales.
Everybody's entitled to their opinion, but where the Canon 50/1.8 really is quite a bit cheaper than the Pentax 50/1.8, the Pentax 16-85 is actually very comparable in price to the Canon/Nikon equivalents. At least here in The Netherlands it is.
01-29-2015, 03:32 AM   #903
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Our friends at DxOMark have tested the DA50 and DA*55 (plus the FA 50 f1.4). Here's the side-by-side results, when tested on a K-3. The DA 50 does fine.
SLRGear tested them as well; the DA 50mm it's not bad, despite its aged design (I have the FA it's based on, by the way) but the DA* is a modern design - sharp from corner to corner, even wide open (on APS-C).

I don't trust DXOMark lens tests, by the way. There's zero chance that a 70mm Limited would only be able to resolve as few detail as a Canikon kit lens - for example.
01-29-2015, 04:09 AM   #904
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Our friends at DxOMark have tested the DA50 and DA*55 (plus the FA 50 f1.4). Here's the side-by-side results, when tested on a K-3. The DA 50 does fine.
I have never really trusted DXO Mark on their lens tests, for what it is worth. I like Photozone better and while Klaus reviewed the DA *55 a long time ago on the K10, he has never looked at the 50 f1.8 on any camera.

Sharpness is probably similar between them, although SLR Gear tested the DA 55 to be quite a bit sharper than the DA 50 up to f2.8 (as mentioned by Kunzite). I do think the DA *55 has better out of focus rendering than the DA 50 f1.8, for what it is worth.

(DA *55 at f1.4)



Sorry to the OP for the rabbit trail. We can return to discussions of how over priced the DA 16-85 is now...


Last edited by Rondec; 01-29-2015 at 04:34 AM.
01-29-2015, 04:16 AM   #905
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I don't trust DXOMark lens tests, by the way.
Neither do I, especially when you see evidence of DxO presenting what looks like simply bungled lens test results like below (something I came across a while ago when looking at their tests of the Sigma 8-16mm on the K-3):

01-29-2015, 08:27 PM - 1 Like   #906
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
So it's all deja vu all over again, every time Pentax releases a lens.
...and Pentax still hasn't learned.

QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
If you think it's expensive don't buy it.
Yes, and feel free to tell others that you think is overpriced.
01-29-2015, 08:49 PM   #907
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
SLRGear tested them as well; the DA 50mm it's not bad, despite its aged design (I have the FA it's based on, by the way) but the DA* is a modern design - sharp from corner to corner, even wide open (on APS-C).
The DA* 55 (a wonderful lens I got the use of one afternoon) seems to be like every other fifty in the business, Kunzite - based on the same old fundamental Zeiss design, following a familiar bell curve as shown by Photozone's testing:



Whatever a fifty does wide open, it's better a couple of steps down.

As the reviewers noted:

"The DA* 55mm f/1.4 SDM shows the rather typical resolution curve of a standard lens. It is fairly soft (inc. contrast) at f/1.4 and f/2 although the center quality is quite fine here already. There's a substantial boost in quality at f/2.8 where the center reaches an excellent level and the borders and corners deliver very good quality. The peak resolution is reached between f/4-5.6 where it is basically excellent across the board. At f/8 diffraction effects start to lower the resolution potential again (as usual). The lens showed no significant amount of field curvature."

I don't doubt differences in colour rendering and contrast, though.
01-30-2015, 02:53 AM   #908
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QuoteOriginally posted by filoxophy Quote
Yes, many people seem not to understand that. Ricoh has been doing that for multiple product cycles now. There was much gnashing of teeth when the K-S1 launched pricier than the K-50, and I've already predicted that when this (presumed) K-50 replacement shows up nipping at the K-3's heels pricewise, the wailing will start again.

The only good argument I've heard against the start-high-then-drop pricing model is that initial reviews will base their value judgment at the product's highest lifetime price, which will then be written in stone (or bits, I guess) and often incorporated in the final score/recommendation.
It would be interesting to hear a retailer's view on this. You'd think start-high-and-drop would work against the interest of a retailer who'd have to spend some while carrying stock which doesn't sell, because it is priced unrealistically. The retailer might be better off not stocking the item until the manufacturer sets a lower price for it. Still, perhaps it doesn't work like that.

I guess the start-high-and-drop model can lead to a manufacturer getting a rep for heavy depreciation, aka "they don't hold their value all that well".


Last edited by mecrox; 01-30-2015 at 03:53 AM.
01-30-2015, 03:01 AM   #909
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
You'd think start-high-and-drop would work against the interest of a retailer who'd have to spend some while carrying stock which doesn't sell, because it is priced unrealistically.
It's only unrealistic for the general population.

The fanatics are the target of pre-release bookings and opening day sales.

Once they've done their purchasing, you aim for the more discerning buyers.

If/when a Pentax FF is released, it won't be a bargain!
01-30-2015, 03:05 AM   #910
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
If/when a Pentax FF is released, it won't be a bargain!
It may not be cheap, but it may still be a bargain.
01-30-2015, 03:05 AM   #911
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
It may not be cheap, but it may still be a bargain.
I like your thinking!
01-30-2015, 03:21 AM   #912
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
The DA* 55 (a wonderful lens I got the use of one afternoon) seems to be like every other fifty in the business, Kunzite - based on the same old fundamental Zeiss design, following a familiar bell curve as shown by Photozone's testing:



Whatever a fifty does wide open, it's better a couple of steps down.

As the reviewers noted:

"The DA* 55mm f/1.4 SDM shows the rather typical resolution curve of a standard lens. It is fairly soft (inc. contrast) at f/1.4 and f/2 although the center quality is quite fine here already. There's a substantial boost in quality at f/2.8 where the center reaches an excellent level and the borders and corners deliver very good quality. The peak resolution is reached between f/4-5.6 where it is basically excellent across the board. At f/8 diffraction effects start to lower the resolution potential again (as usual). The lens showed no significant amount of field curvature."

I don't doubt differences in colour rendering and contrast, though.
I wonder if there is some copy variation. My experience with the DA *55 as compared to the FA 50 f1.4 is that it is quite a bit sharper wide open. It was the last lens that Hirakawa Jun designed for Pentax before he was let go by Hoya.

SLR Gear really liked it. Their conclusion was:

Conclusion
There isn't much to add that we haven't already covered: excellent results for sharpness, great resistance to CA, little to no corner shading or distortion. Quick and silent autofocus; rounded aperture blades; and to top it all off, a great lens hood that you probably won't even need given the lens' shrouded design. Pentax has produced a fantastic lens with the 55mm /1.4 DA*, however the only sticking point could be its high price point: at over $700, it's one of the most expensive 50mm-style lenses of any manufacturer. Based on our test results however, you definitely get your money's worth.
01-30-2015, 07:24 AM   #913
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
It would be interesting to hear a retailer's view on this. You'd think start-high-and-drop would work against the interest of a retailer who'd have to spend some while carrying stock which doesn't sell, because it is priced unrealistically. The retailer might be better off not stocking the item until the manufacturer sets a lower price for it. Still, perhaps it doesn't work like that.

I guess the start-high-and-drop model can lead to a manufacturer getting a rep for heavy depreciation, aka "they don't hold their value all that well".
The problem is that it's become the business modus operandi. Remember a year ago we were inundated with 299 dollar D3200 kits all over the web? Before that it was the cheap D3100s when the D3200 came out. When the D7100 came out the D7000 had gotten much cheaper. Canon also does this. At some point they discount the old products to move them, before introducing new ones. Or do you really think a 7D MkII will still be selling for 1799 a year from now??

They all price it higher at the beginning of the cycle for the people who "gotta have this now!!". Then they lower the prices later to lure the rest of us in
01-30-2015, 07:56 AM   #914
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChristianRock Quote
The problem is that it's become the business modus operandi. Remember a year ago we were inundated with 299 dollar D3200 kits all over the web? Before that it was the cheap D3100s when the D3200 came out. When the D7100 came out the D7000 had gotten much cheaper. Canon also does this. At some point they discount the old products to move them, before introducing new ones. Or do you really think a 7D MkII will still be selling for 1799 a year from now??

They all price it higher at the beginning of the cycle for the people who "gotta have this now!!". Then they lower the prices later to lure the rest of us in
Yes, most photography products decline in price after introduction. What you're describing with the Nikon exampes, though, are reductions associated with products which are or will shortly be discontinued. That's a different situation than introducing a product at an artificially inflated price to snare some "got to have it NOW" customers. As has been mentioned, the inflated price strategy runs the risk of attracting negative views of a product that may take a long time to eliminate (if ever).
01-30-2015, 08:57 AM - 2 Likes   #915
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
It would be interesting to hear a retailer's view on this. You'd think start-high-and-drop would work against the interest of a retailer who'd have to spend some while carrying stock which doesn't sell, because it is priced unrealistically. The retailer might be better off not stocking the item until the manufacturer sets a lower price for it. Still, perhaps it doesn't work like that.
Retailers who know their market are very good at estimating demand at different stages of the product cycle,
and are surely able to adjust their stocking levels accordingly.

The Pentax Webstore, on the other hand . . .
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