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09-17-2014, 04:38 AM - 1 Like   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
studying market and customer expectations
It's called paralysis by analysis.

Or simply avoiding risk by doing nothing. Or from a slightly different philosophical perspective, something from the Tao Te Ching: by doing nothing, nothing remains undone.

Someone in Ricoh management just needs to give the order to do FF. Damn the torpedos.

09-17-2014, 05:08 AM   #212
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As much as I wanted a K mount FF camera, most of us are just hobbyist. Hitting the right price point for some us might be the real deal breaker. How much would you think an A7 would cost by the time they release the anticipated Pentax FF? Yes, there will be no AF but most of us in this forum have collected some good manual glass. I guess RICOH knows that a lot of current Pentax fans are hobbyist and any pro user would probably have owned a CaNikon already thus the market study being conducted by them. Any Pro (w/ exception of wildlife & some wedding photographers) would probably be thinking of getting the 645z or already have them. Besides, most of the new generation does not want a big DSLR camera.
09-17-2014, 05:17 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Customer requirements may be even simpeler then I already stated: A K-mount FF Camera in any form, shape or price will probably do for the current userbase. It may not be for everbybody, but it would at least show the users that the Pentax intensions are genuine.



Who cares any longer? The risk of fooling their users time and time again with empty words is many many times bigger then release a K-mount FF camera in whatever form.



And now, I'll quote Mr. Kitazawa again: "First, we are discussing development of FF SLR. We are touching base with a sensor manufacturer and proceeding the process of development towards production."

That's what they said in 2012 as one of their plans for 2013!

Who can still believe them? I may require a lobotomy for that?
It could well be the case that Ricoh once purchasing Pentax disliked what were internal FF plans at this time.
Pentax rep was talking about full frameS thus I understand they explore both reflex and ML formats, maybe more I am not aware of.
If for some reasons these market studies and internal brainstorming converged to ML FF concept whereas Hoya era was more about a standard SLR, then FF team has to work almost from zero again. In this case 2 years of dev is not a lot. You could argue this new 70-200 design does not look ML oriented - I have no answer for that one.
09-17-2014, 05:20 AM   #214
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For Mr Kazunobu Saiki, it will clearly be DSLR FF.
But a compact one.
APS-C might well be declined as ILC in the meantime, although they intend to stick with small sensors in this segment.

Sorry for not having time to translate from french language.

"M. Kazunobu Saiki
- En même temps, nous sommes conscients que beaucoup de clients sont intéressés par le 24x36, c'est pour cela que nous avons débuté les travaux sur un reflex plein format de ce type.

Focus Numérique - Le 24x36 doit trouver sa place dans un reflex ou dans un COI comme la série A7 de Sony ?

M. Kazunobu Saiki
- Pour le segment des COI, les clients souhaitent avoir l'appareil le plus petit possible. Nous garderons donc de petits capteurs. Par contre, nous sommes bien conscients qu'il faut des appareils de plus en compacts même pour les reflex. Si c'est le désir des clients, alors nous travaillerons sur des reflex encore plus compacts."


Last edited by Zygonyx; 09-17-2014 at 05:26 AM.
09-17-2014, 05:22 AM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That was for Clavius (sorry for not quoting him); for you, it might actually make sense to wait a bit - if you can afford to.
And I said that because he's seeing Pentax as "the brand which is the most difficult to get rid of". I wouldn't continue using a brand I want to get rid of...
I remember that you had told us to wait and we would see the outstanding products from Ricoh. Where is such product?

To get rid of means loss of money. Don't you think so? Or maybe you are millionaire?

My Pentax gear are used and I can sell all with price 30-50% lower than I had bought.
K200D, for example, costs almost nothing. I had bought it for USD800 and can sell for USD150 now.
09-17-2014, 05:29 AM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
For Mr Kazunobu Saiki, it will clearly be DSLR FF.
But a compact one.
APS-C might well be declined as ILC in the meantime, although they intend to stick with small sensors in this segment.

Sorry for not having time to translate from french language.

"M. Kazunobu Saiki
- En même temps, nous sommes conscients que beaucoup de clients sont intéressés par le 24x36, c'est pour cela que nous avons débuté les travaux sur un reflex plein format de ce type.

Focus Numérique - Le 24x36 doit trouver sa place dans un reflex ou dans un COI comme la série A7 de Sony ?

M. Kazunobu Saiki
- Pour le segment des COI, les clients souhaitent avoir l'appareil le plus petit possible. Nous garderons donc de petits capteurs. Par contre, nous sommes bien conscients qu'il faut des appareils de plus en compacts même pour les reflex. Si c'est le désir des clients, alors nous travaillerons sur des reflex encore plus compacts."
i did it for you on page 13 .

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Another interview at Photokina, this time by the French website Focus Numérique (literally translated: Digital Focus; they belong to the same group as Les Numériques, hardware.fr, Digital Versus and more):

Ricoh - Pentax travaillerait bien sur un reflex 24x36

Focus Numérique : Nous avons vu sur le stand trois nouveaux prototypes d'optiques. Elles sont vraiment impressionnantes et semblent taillées pour un grand capteur non ?

Kazunobi Saiki : Vous pouvez le sentir ? (rire) Après le lancement du 645Z, nous pensons encore qu'il s'agit là de notre modèle haut de gamme (flagship). C'est notre réponse pour les personnes qui recherchent la meilleure qualité d'image. En même temps, nous sommes conscients qu'il y a beaucoup de clients qui sont intéressés par le 24x36, c'est pour cela que nous avons débuté les travaux sur un reflex plein format de ce type. Par contre nous devons encore étudier le marché pour bien répondre à l'attente des clients. Je ne peux donc pas vous dire quand nous proposerons ce type de reflex.

Focus Numérique : Le 24x36 doit trouver sa place dans un reflex ou dans un COI comme la série A7 de Sony ?

Kazunobi Saiki : Pour le segment des COI, les clients souhaitent avoir l'appareil le plus petit possible. Nous garderons donc de petits capteurs. Par contre, nous sommes bien conscients qu'il faut des appareils de plus en compacts même pour les reflex. Si c'est le désir des clients, alors nous travaillerons sur des reflex encore plus compacts.


Translation:

Focus Numérique: On the stand we saw three new lens prototypes. They are really impressive and seem to be designed [literally: cut] for a large sensor, right?

Kazunobi Saiki: You can feel it? (laughs) After launching the 645Z, we still think that this is our flagship. This is our response to those looking for the best image quality. At the same time, we recognize that there are many customers who are interested in the 24x36 [format]; that is why we have started working on a full-frame DSLR like this. On the other hand, we are still studying the market to adequately meet customers’ expectations. So I cannot tell you when we will propose this type of DSLR.

Focus Numérique: Will a 24x36 [sensor] find its place in a DSLR or a mirrorless camera such as the A7 series from Sony?

Kazunobi Saiki: For the mirrorless segment, customers want the smallest possible camera. We shall therefore stick to small sensors. On the other hand, we are well aware that there is a demand for more compact devices, even for DSLRs. If this is the customers’ wish, then we will work on more compact DSLRs.


On a side consideration: note the interviewer's mistake when he states that all three new lenses, thus including the 16-85mm, seem to be designed for a 24x36 sensor .
09-17-2014, 05:33 AM   #217
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Just make a FF version of the K-3 with wifi/nfc articulated touch screen and phase detect sensor. It's not so hard
09-17-2014, 05:41 AM   #218
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I think a key-point, of which we don't imagine complexity, is body build SR with a so "tiny" FF mount....
They may have to reengineer a completely new SR mecanism.
Or drop body-build SR.

09-17-2014, 05:57 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I think a key-point, of which we don't imagine complexity, is body build SR with a so "tiny" FF mount....
They may have to reengineer a completely new SR mecanism.
Or drop body-build SR.
SR will have less room not only physical but also within the image circle. So it will not be suited for longer focal distances where more compensation is required. Alternative would be to increase the image circle to larger than the FF-sensor 43.3mm. That is why I think the new telezooms will have sr built in. SR in FF is possible because Sony is already doing it in the A99 and also did in the a850 and a900.
09-17-2014, 05:58 AM - 2 Likes   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tesla Quote
So that was a real disappointing interview. Nothing new. Oh well. The only thing that gives me a little hope for FF are the French comments on FB and what we think are two FF zooms.. I'll give in and wait till CP+, but I know many are bailing now.. Ricoh's own fault.
You're wrong.. there was lots new..

"Engineering is engaged with the the full frame". remember when they said the design team was going to the 645 after the K-3....well now they're engaged with the full frame.

Remember when the the Full Frame was going to be developed at the whim of marketing?
Well "We realize that the Full Frame market is increasing." marketing has given it's OK.

"What we don't know now is the release date."

In other words, they know the specs, they know the design, they know the features, what they don't know is the release date. And they won't know that until the engineers have everything working together. The same engineers who just completed the K-3 and the 645z in the last year. There is absolutely no reason to be believe the guys who pulled off the excellent K-3 and excellent 645z can't pull off an excellent Full Frame. At this point, the negativity is un-warranted.

Last edited by normhead; 09-17-2014 at 06:37 AM.
09-17-2014, 06:10 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
No, it is the language of diplomacy.
DIPLOMACY, n. The patriotic art of lying for one's country.
09-17-2014, 06:10 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That we want a K-3 with a FF sensor is an oversimplification, and when all you have to do is to write some words on a forum in recognizable English, things are very simple indeed.
But when trying to predict actual sales vs. features and price points... for example, would we rather buy a cheaper 24MP camera, or perhaps we'd rather go with a more expensive higher resolution model - and a significant difference from the K-3? What features must be included, that won't get it past the price limit we would pay? etc. With their small market share, they can't just risk it.
Perhaps they're even down to two prototypes, trying to decide which one should be launched on the market.
They need to release a camera that is above the K3. A D610 at best feels like a lateral move. You could do something above the D600 with regard to specs, even if you keep the 24 megapixel sensor. Fast frame rate, solid body, good buffer.

I don't think megapixels are the issue here -- 24 versus 36 -- the issue is having the camera be a true step up from the APS-C flagship.
09-17-2014, 06:16 AM - 2 Likes   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is very reasonable to release a LX-1D as an upgrade path for folks who have maxed out a K3, but expecting it to be a huge seller is uncertain at the least. With sensor stabilization, with the right body size and the right lenses available, it could be an OK seller.
Given the amount of technology that could transfer UP from a K-3 and DOWN from a 645Z there is some logic to incrementally increasing the number of units distributing these 'sunk' technology costs. They might not need to sell so many FF's to make a profit, or even to break even and sell lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I think a key-point, of which we don't imagine complexity, is body build SR with a so "tiny" FF mount....
They may have to reengineer a completely new SR mecanism.
Or drop body-build SR.
There always remains the possibility that a body large enough to allow full sensor shift within the 36x24 image circle is bigger than Ricoh's design ethic (and customer demands) will permit. So there also remains the possibility that the designed image capture area on a FF sensor with IBIS is slightly cropped. That decision alone might have cost Ricoh several quarters of R&D development and experimentation, so that they might have decided two years ago to proceed with a FF IF and ONLY IF this problem was solved or decided.

What if they abandoned IBIS in a FF two years ago and have spent their time these last years developing ILIS? Would you feel betrayed? I don't think they have done - but that's a possibility. [EDIT: What if they knew they could abandon IBIS but chose not to - and spent these years finding a solution to preserve it - would that justify the wait? Would that prompt a host of complainers to look in (or behind) the mirror?]

Perhaps the change in tone indicates the decision has been made and now 'development' means designing the manufacturing process and other further process engineering. Perhaps 'assessing the market' doesn't refer to sales projections, but rather means negotiating with component suppliers for longer-term contracts, taking into account potential future releases we haven't even thought of but they have on their internal development roadmaps. For instance asahi man commented that planned cameras and 'the next cameras' will have Sony sensors. In that case, the possibility exist that if the market for components doesn't allow low enough cost - no FF. I'm a gaijin, but I'm at least aware that little is ever actually revealed in conversation with a Japanese. OTOH, slight changes in wording can be very meaningful - I assume there is a desire NOT to give false hope.

We accuse them of being hide-bound. I imagine they're pretty smart cookies who know how to make high quality stuff and make money doing it.

Things are what they are. Accept them, complain about them or do something else - but none of those responses will change things.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-18-2014 at 06:08 AM.
09-17-2014, 06:18 AM   #224
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Pentax better release their FF soon or else many will switch to Canikony for good !!!
I read the article and see promises, no quote cited, no "officially"
09-17-2014, 06:29 AM   #225
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Let's remember the way Ricoh has launched K-3 and K-S1. No clues about until 2 weeks before the launch. The big difference was with 645z. But this was understandable, because on MF market, Pentax has a big share, and the announcement from the competitors, forced Ricoh to show that they are also working to a 50MP MF camera as well, to prevent a big loss.

My personal believe is that Ricoh is almost ready with the development, and the announcement will come in 6-8 months, as Asahiman have said on DPR. Showing those two unbranded lenses is one of the signs. But is only what I believe.

PS. Another sign is the fact they specify two things about FF. Will not be a mirrorless, and will be a small size DSLR.
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