Photokina 2014: Ricoh confirm full frame camera is coming in 2015

**filoxophy** · 11-20-2014, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

By the way, Sony's 5-axis in-body stabilisation works in conjunction with in-lens stabilisation when the lens is so equipped.

Yes, that is very interesting indeed. Is it for better stabilization, battery performance, or what?

Mistral75 · 11-21-2014, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by filoxophy

Yes, that is very interesting indeed. Is it for better stabilization, battery performance, or what?

I would say better performance with long lenses and improved user's experience: you don't need to switch between ILIS and IBIS when you swap lenses, the camera just adapts itself.

**monochrome** · 11-21-2014, 02:32 AM

Originally posted by luftfluss

I really think that Pentax needs to re-engage in mirrorless (larger than the Q) within the decade.

Over and above the development cost of the camera technology there's the manufacturing technology to consider.

To a manufacturer the benefit of MILC is a simpler, less expensive manufacturing process. That's a cost saving on a per-unit basis, once you've done the camera engineering, the process engineering, tested and proven the manufacturing concept and process, invested the capital in the new process and facilities and established enough product flow to amortize all the non-unit costs over a large number of units.

The question is whether Ricoh chooses to make all those investments for a small-market-share camera.

**monochrome** · 11-21-2014, 02:34 AM

There's nothing new in the world.

The hinged LCD is the modern analog of a Refconverter. Wherever you would have used a 'Right Angle Finder' with a film camera (static tripod and odd body position work) you would use a hinged LCD today.

reh321 · 11-21-2014, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Over and above the development cost of the camera technology there's the manufacturing technology to consider.

To a manufacturer the benefit of MILC is a simpler, less expensive manufacturing process. That's a cost saving on a per-unit basis, once you've done the camera engineering, the process engineering, tested and proven the manufacturing concept and process, invested the capital in the new process and facilities and established enough product flow to amortize all the non-unit costs over a large number of units.

The question is whether Ricoh chooses to make all those investments for a small-market-share camera.

Part of the question is whether MILC remains small market.
I've been expecting a MILC tsunami to dominate the crop-sensor market, and (to push the metaphor) wash cameras like the K-50 away - so far it hasn't happened, but I hope that Pentax at least has a contingency plan if that were to happen.

lytrytyr · 11-21-2014, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by reh321

Part of the question is whether MILC remains small market.
I've been expecting a MILC tsunami to dominate the crop-sensor market, and (to push the metaphor) wash cameras like the K-50 away - so far it hasn't happened, but I hope that Pentax at least has a contingency plan if that were to happen.

With current technologies, there's a need for both.
While I prefer the live-view implementation on my K-01,
I use my K-50 for action photography.

It would be great to have a "mirrorless mode" on the DSLRs,
where the mirror would stay locked up
and its live view would function exactly like a mirrorless.

JimmyDranox · 11-21-2014, 09:07 AM

MILC vs DSLR? Why? IMO, both systems can coexist very well. Some people will prefer MILC, others DSLR. Simple.

Personally, I would like a FF MILC, if it has the size of a K-3, or a little bigger, like a Canon 7D, and if it has a fast enough EVF. Definitely, I don't like Sony A7 size and ergonomics. As everyone knows, tastes are very different.

**Rondec** · 11-21-2014, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by lytrytyr

With current technologies, there's a need for both.
While I prefer the live-view implementation on my K-01,
I use my K-50 for action photography.

It would be great to have a "mirrorless mode" on the DSLRs,
where the mirror would stay locked up
and its live view would function exactly like a mirrorless.

Problem with that "mirrorless mode" on an SLR is that the viewfinder is dark. Having an EVF allows for that.

lytrytyr · 11-21-2014, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Problem with that "mirrorless mode" on an SLR is that the viewfinder is dark.

No problem. In live view, the rear screen is the "viewfinder".

**monochrome** · 11-21-2014, 11:43 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by JimmyDranox

MILC vs DSLR? Why? IMO, both systems can coexist very well. Some people will prefer MILC, others DSLR. Simple.

Personally, I would like a FF MILC, if it has the size of a K-3, or a little bigger, like a Canon 7D, and if it has a fast enough EVF. Definitely, I don't like Sony A7 size and ergonomics. As everyone knows, tastes are very different.

My wife and I have aged out of the conservative, traditional child-rearing years. Our needs have changed. It's party time!!

I still like a black Full-Size 4-Door sedan and all the traditional roadworthiness, comfort and capacity it offers.

My wife just traded her 2004 Subaru small SUV for a blazingly brightly-colored, striped, jazzy Mini Cooper.

I'm sure they will joyfully coexist in our garage for many years to come.

I do not forecast the imminent demise of full-size 4-Door sedans.

Clavius · 11-24-2014, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

My wife and I have aged out of the conservative, traditional child-rearing years. Our needs have changed. It's party time!!

I still like a black Full-Size 4-Door sedan and all the traditional roadworthiness, comfort and capacity it offers.

My wife just traded her 2004 Subaru small SUV for a blazingly brightly-colored, striped, jazzy Mini Cooper.

I'm sure they will joyfully coexist in our garage for many years to come.

I do not forecast the imminent demise of full-size 4-Door sedans.

Also, I think a current sensor like the one in the A7s would be even more at home in a DSLR in a MILC. With that sensor sensitivity and with the frame rates and long lens support of many DSLRs it would be a killer camera for dimly lit fast action occasions.

eurostar · 11-24-2014, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by filoxophy

Yes, that is very interesting indeed. Is it for better stabilization, battery performance, or what?

On a reflex, in-lens stabilization is better for the AF performance. On a stabie image, AF sensors work better. You can see for yourself with a Sigma OS lens on a Pentax. Stabilization works the same (I'd say SR is better) but the AF locks faster on a stable image in the viewfinder.

On a mirrorless I don't know, I'd say since the AF works on pixel, and you see in the EVF what the sensor is seeing, that shouldn't be any real advantage.

pericombobulation · 11-24-2014, 09:56 AM

If Pentax wants to set themselves apart, I think they should go for a larger LCD, not necessarily a tilting LCD. Think about it - why is it that practically every camera on the market has an LCD that is around 3" or less? It makes no sense, especially on a MILC, where the LCD is the only tool you have for composing the scene. I know we all want smaller cameras, but I for one would like a bigger LCD. Much bigger! I think it is possible to make a small camera with a huge screen - you just have to move all the buttons to the top (or even the sides or front), so that every square millimeter on the back is LCD real estate.

My dream is a full-frame K-02 with a giant LCD. It would be unique and might be a good niche for Pentax. Picture a camera shaped like a roll of 110 film (when viewed from above). The tubes on the sides are of course symmetrical, so it would be easy to grip with one hand OR with 2 hands, for righties OR lefties. Dual batteries could go in the tubes. All the buttons up top. And a giant LCD screen on the back. I think landscapers would love it, and it should be great in a studio too. My $0.02. Just dreaming.

Mistral75 · 11-24-2014, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by pericombobulation

If Pentax wants to set themselves apart, I think they should go for a larger LCD, not necessarily a tilting LCD. Think about it - why is it that practically every camera on the market has an LCD that is around 3" or less? It makes no sense, especially on a MILC, where the LCD is the only tool you have for composing the scene. I know we all want smaller cameras, but I for one would like a bigger LCD. Much bigger! I think it is possible to make a small camera with a huge screen - you just have to move all the buttons to the top (or even the sides or front), so that every square millimeter on the back is LCD real estate.

My dream is a full-frame K-02 with a giant LCD. It would be unique and might be a good niche for Pentax. Picture a camera shaped like a roll of 110 film (when viewed from above). The tubes on the sides are of course symmetrical, so it would be easy to grip with one hand OR with 2 hands, for righties OR lefties. Dual batteries could go in the tubes. All the buttons up top. And a giant LCD screen on the back. I think landscapers would love it, and it should be great in a studio too. My $0.02. Just dreaming.

You should try a Samsung Galaxy NX and its 4.8" AMOLED screen.

pericombobulation · 11-24-2014, 10:34 AM

Looks nice, but I'm not a big fan of touchscreens. And it's not FF. I know, I know, I'm fussy. :-)

11-21-2014, 11:43 AM - 1 Like	#565
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	I do not forecast the imminent demise of full-size 4-Door sedans. Originally posted by JimmyDranox MILC vs DSLR? Why? IMO, both systems can coexist very well. Some people will prefer MILC, others DSLR. Simple. Personally, I would like a FF MILC, if it has the size of a K-3, or a little bigger, like a Canon 7D, and if it has a fast enough EVF. Definitely, I don't like Sony A7 size and ergonomics. As everyone knows, tastes are very different. My wife and I have aged out of the conservative, traditional child-rearing years. Our needs have changed. It's party time!! I still like a black Full-Size 4-Door sedan and all the traditional roadworthiness, comfort and capacity it offers. My wife just traded her 2004 Subaru small SUV for a blazingly brightly-colored, striped, jazzy Mini Cooper. I'm sure they will joyfully coexist in our garage for many years to come. I do not forecast the imminent demise of full-size 4-Door sedans.

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11-20-2014, 11:06 PM	#556
filoxophy Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 1,132	Originally posted by Mistral75 By the way, Sony's 5-axis in-body stabilisation works in conjunction with in-lens stabilisation when the lens is so equipped. Yes, that is very interesting indeed. Is it for better stabilization, battery performance, or what?

11-21-2014, 12:10 AM	#557
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527 Original Poster	Originally posted by filoxophy Yes, that is very interesting indeed. Is it for better stabilization, battery performance, or what? I would say better performance with long lenses and improved user's experience: you don't need to switch between ILIS and IBIS when you swap lenses, the camera just adapts itself.

11-21-2014, 02:32 AM	#558
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by luftfluss I really think that Pentax needs to re-engage in mirrorless (larger than the Q) within the decade. Over and above the development cost of the camera technology there's the manufacturing technology to consider. To a manufacturer the benefit of MILC is a simpler, less expensive manufacturing process. That's a cost saving on a per-unit basis, once you've done the camera engineering, the process engineering, tested and proven the manufacturing concept and process, invested the capital in the new process and facilities and established enough product flow to amortize all the non-unit costs over a large number of units. The question is whether Ricoh chooses to make all those investments for a small-market-share camera.

11-21-2014, 02:34 AM	#559
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	There's nothing new in the world. The hinged LCD is the modern analog of a Refconverter. Wherever you would have used a 'Right Angle Finder' with a film camera (static tripod and odd body position work) you would use a hinged LCD today.

11-21-2014, 07:51 AM	#560
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,179	Originally posted by monochrome Over and above the development cost of the camera technology there's the manufacturing technology to consider. To a manufacturer the benefit of MILC is a simpler, less expensive manufacturing process. That's a cost saving on a per-unit basis, once you've done the camera engineering, the process engineering, tested and proven the manufacturing concept and process, invested the capital in the new process and facilities and established enough product flow to amortize all the non-unit costs over a large number of units. The question is whether Ricoh chooses to make all those investments for a small-market-share camera. Part of the question is whether MILC remains small market. I've been expecting a MILC tsunami to dominate the crop-sensor market, and (to push the metaphor) wash cameras like the K-50 away - so far it hasn't happened, but I hope that Pentax at least has a contingency plan if that were to happen.

11-21-2014, 09:03 AM	#561
lytrytyr Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,310	Originally posted by reh321 Part of the question is whether MILC remains small market. I've been expecting a MILC tsunami to dominate the crop-sensor market, and (to push the metaphor) wash cameras like the K-50 away - so far it hasn't happened, but I hope that Pentax at least has a contingency plan if that were to happen. With current technologies, there's a need for both. While I prefer the live-view implementation on my K-01, I use my K-50 for action photography. It would be great to have a "mirrorless mode" on the DSLRs, where the mirror would stay locked up and its live view would function exactly like a mirrorless.

11-21-2014, 09:07 AM	#562
JimmyDranox Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Ploiesti, Romania Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,632	MILC vs DSLR? Why? IMO, both systems can coexist very well. Some people will prefer MILC, others DSLR. Simple. Personally, I would like a FF MILC, if it has the size of a K-3, or a little bigger, like a Canon 7D, and if it has a fast enough EVF. Definitely, I don't like Sony A7 size and ergonomics. As everyone knows, tastes are very different.

11-21-2014, 09:50 AM	#563
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by lytrytyr With current technologies, there's a need for both. While I prefer the live-view implementation on my K-01, I use my K-50 for action photography. It would be great to have a "mirrorless mode" on the DSLRs, where the mirror would stay locked up and its live view would function exactly like a mirrorless. Problem with that "mirrorless mode" on an SLR is that the viewfinder is dark. Having an EVF allows for that.

11-21-2014, 10:12 AM	#564
lytrytyr Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,310	Originally posted by Rondec Problem with that "mirrorless mode" on an SLR is that the viewfinder is dark. No problem. In live view, the rear screen is the "viewfinder".

11-24-2014, 02:04 AM	#566
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by monochrome My wife and I have aged out of the conservative, traditional child-rearing years. Our needs have changed. It's party time!! I still like a black Full-Size 4-Door sedan and all the traditional roadworthiness, comfort and capacity it offers. My wife just traded her 2004 Subaru small SUV for a blazingly brightly-colored, striped, jazzy Mini Cooper. I'm sure they will joyfully coexist in our garage for many years to come. I do not forecast the imminent demise of full-size 4-Door sedans. Also, I think a current sensor like the one in the A7s would be even more at home in a DSLR in a MILC. With that sensor sensitivity and with the frame rates and long lens support of many DSLRs it would be a killer camera for dimly lit fast action occasions.

11-24-2014, 03:02 AM	#567
eurostar Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Albareto, Italy Photos: Gallery Posts: 819	Originally posted by filoxophy Yes, that is very interesting indeed. Is it for better stabilization, battery performance, or what? On a reflex, in-lens stabilization is better for the AF performance. On a stabie image, AF sensors work better. You can see for yourself with a Sigma OS lens on a Pentax. Stabilization works the same (I'd say SR is better) but the AF locks faster on a stable image in the viewfinder. On a mirrorless I don't know, I'd say since the AF works on pixel, and you see in the EVF what the sensor is seeing, that shouldn't be any real advantage.

11-24-2014, 09:56 AM	#568
pericombobulation Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 103	If Pentax wants to set themselves apart, I think they should go for a larger LCD, not necessarily a tilting LCD. Think about it - why is it that practically every camera on the market has an LCD that is around 3" or less? It makes no sense, especially on a MILC, where the LCD is the only tool you have for composing the scene. I know we all want smaller cameras, but I for one would like a bigger LCD. Much bigger! I think it is possible to make a small camera with a huge screen - you just have to move all the buttons to the top (or even the sides or front), so that every square millimeter on the back is LCD real estate. My dream is a full-frame K-02 with a giant LCD. It would be unique and might be a good niche for Pentax. Picture a camera shaped like a roll of 110 film (when viewed from above). The tubes on the sides are of course symmetrical, so it would be easy to grip with one hand OR with 2 hands, for righties OR lefties. Dual batteries could go in the tubes. All the buttons up top. And a giant LCD screen on the back. I think landscapers would love it, and it should be great in a studio too. My $0.02. Just dreaming.

11-24-2014, 10:04 AM	#569
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527 Original Poster	Originally posted by pericombobulation If Pentax wants to set themselves apart, I think they should go for a larger LCD, not necessarily a tilting LCD. Think about it - why is it that practically every camera on the market has an LCD that is around 3" or less? It makes no sense, especially on a MILC, where the LCD is the only tool you have for composing the scene. I know we all want smaller cameras, but I for one would like a bigger LCD. Much bigger! I think it is possible to make a small camera with a huge screen - you just have to move all the buttons to the top (or even the sides or front), so that every square millimeter on the back is LCD real estate. My dream is a full-frame K-02 with a giant LCD. It would be unique and might be a good niche for Pentax. Picture a camera shaped like a roll of 110 film (when viewed from above). The tubes on the sides are of course symmetrical, so it would be easy to grip with one hand OR with 2 hands, for righties OR lefties. Dual batteries could go in the tubes. All the buttons up top. And a giant LCD screen on the back. I think landscapers would love it, and it should be great in a studio too. My $0.02. Just dreaming. You should try a Samsung Galaxy NX and its 4.8" AMOLED screen.

11-24-2014, 10:34 AM	#570
pericombobulation Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 103	Looks nice, but I'm not a big fan of touchscreens. And it's not FF. I know, I know, I'm fussy. :-)