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11-26-2014, 11:53 PM   #601
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No EVF for coming FF, seems clear to me that being said... an add-on EVF on top of OVF would be funny, although very akward.

11-27-2014, 12:19 AM   #602
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
No EVF for coming FF, seems clear to me that being said... an add-on EVF on top of OVF would be funny, although very akward.
Not on top of - instead of. Removable like on the LX. It would be kind of nice, but is it useful enough?
11-27-2014, 03:59 AM   #603
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Not on top of - instead of. Removable like on the LX. It would be kind of nice, but is it useful enough?
Removing an OVF for anything else (being EVF, OVF or any fancy thingie) is IMO way too costly (manufacturing tolerances).
11-27-2014, 05:19 AM   #604
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Sony aps are required to be installed on the smart phone and the camera.
That's a deal breaker for the entire brand.

Rootkit.

11-27-2014, 09:54 AM - 1 Like   #605
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That's a deal breaker for the entire brand.

Rootkit.
Why would you say that. The rootkit is a nasty scandal perpetrated by Sony, but its 7 years later. Should we not now be buying any Sony Cameras, sensors, etc.? Microsoft has done some nasty things to competitors and we still let them operate. Not sure what your point is?
11-27-2014, 10:02 AM - 1 Like   #606
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Why would you say that. The rootkit is a nasty scandal perpetrated by Sony, but its 7 years later. Should we not now be buying any Sony Cameras, sensors, etc.? Microsoft has done some nasty things to competitors and we still let them operate. Not sure what your point is?
I will never install Sony software on any device I already own. I will never purchase a Sony product (soft product or hard product) that requires me to install Sony software on any device I already own.

Sony was caught seven years ago. That is all - and that's the problem with getting caught.

AFAIC the entire enterprise is demonstrably untrustworthy forever.
11-27-2014, 11:11 AM   #607
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The LX was/is one of the most appreciated SLRs for professional photographers, cant see anything awkward about that...
11-27-2014, 01:19 PM   #608
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I will never install Sony software on any device I already own. I will never purchase a Sony product (soft product or hard product) that requires me to install Sony software on any device I already own.

Sony was caught seven years ago. That is all - and that's the problem with getting caught.

AFAIC the entire enterprise is demonstrably untrustworthy forever.
Actually, i respect that position. I once worked for an organization in which your signature was used as a basis for certifying work completion. If one was ever caught cheating, than your signature was considered void and of no use forever. I knew of an individual who was caught cheating on a qualification exam, and his employment was terminated. No buts about it.

11-27-2014, 06:54 PM   #609
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I will never install Sony software on any device I already own. I will never purchase a Sony product (soft product or hard product) that requires me to install Sony software on any device I already own.

Sony was caught seven years ago. That is all - and that's the problem with getting caught.

AFAIC the entire enterprise is demonstrably untrustworthy forever.
Seems rather naive to me to think of a cooperation with over 100,000 employees as a single entity with a certain ethics standard.

Sony BMG (music entertainment) was the culprit back then, trying to address piracy. Rejecting software for Sony DSLRs or phones for not trusting Sony overall does not seem justified at all. For all we know the individual ultimately responsible for the scandal back then could be working for Ricoh now.

You are certainly entitled to your Sony software fear, just saying it is not a very rational position.
11-27-2014, 10:39 PM   #610
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Seems rather naive to me to think of a cooperation with over 100,000 employees as a single entity with a certain ethics standard.

Sony BMG (music entertainment) was the culprit back then, trying to address piracy. Rejecting software for Sony DSLRs or phones for not trusting Sony overall does not seem justified at all. For all we know the individual ultimately responsible for the scandal back then could be working for Ricoh now.

You are certainly entitled to your Sony software fear, just saying it is not a very rational position.
You seem like a technically astute guy, so I guess I don't have to say that the purpose of a root kit is to take control of a computer at the deepest level, without leaving any trace to the user.

Here is what Steve Heckler, Sony's Entertainment division VP said in a speech at an Information Systems conference prior to the root kit debacle.
QuoteQuote:
"The industry will take whatever steps it needs to protect itself and protect its revenue streams... It will not lose that revenue stream, no matter what... Sony is going to take aggressive steps to stop this. We will develop technology that transcends the individual user."
(emphasis added)

The XCP software was installed by Sony music CD's, without notification (even in the fine print) or consent by the user, it had complete access to OS level functions, and it was purposely hidden (the downfall in Sony's plot was that their customers figured out what was going on). It phoned home to mother Sony personal details about you. Again, without your consent or knowledge.

If you did to Sony what Sony did to its customers, you'd only be taking pictures of men in striped pajamas now. It's clear Sony's "no matter what" ethos included complete disregard for privacy rights and personal information of its customers.

The initial "fix" by Sony was laughable. It simply unhid the files, didn't uninstall anything. Plus it installed additional software which could not be uninstalled. Plus the uninstaller required installation of an ActiveX control, leaving the computer with further security vulnerabilities. From all appearances, Sony thought this should suffice.

Throughout the entire sorry saga, one thing is crystal clear: Sony was counting on it's customers being stupid and naive. As it turned out, Sony's customers weren't as naive or stupid as Sony was counting on.

I'm definitely in Monochrome's camp on this issue. I happen to think it's irrational to trust a company whose corporate culture spawns a program of such callous disrespect and disregard for fellow humans, and has hope of succeeding only if its customers are really, really stupid.
11-27-2014, 10:55 PM   #611
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
I happen to think it's irrational to trust a company whose corporate culture spawns a program of such callous disrespect and disregard for fellow humans, and has hope of succeeding only if its customers are really, really stupid.
Simple solution - use their cameras, don't install their camera software, apps etc.

After all, third party software reads Sony data files (JPEGs, RAWs and video files) no problems.
11-28-2014, 03:17 AM   #612
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
I happen to think it's irrational to trust a company whose corporate culture spawns a program of such callous disrespect and disregard for fellow humans, and has hope of succeeding only if its customers are really, really stupid.
So... You're implying that there is large corporations out there that don't count on customers being stupid? Sorry, but that's even more naive. And is this still about cameras at all?

Seriously, if the Sony system is now so good that all we can complain about is its manufacturers ethics, then I know what I'm buying.
11-28-2014, 03:36 AM   #613
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So... You're implying that there is large corporations out there that don't count on customers being stupid? Sorry, but that's even more naive. And is this still about cameras at all?

Seriously, if the Sony system is now so good that all we can complain about is its manufacturers ethics, then I know what I'm buying.
Sony was a bit more egregious than most out there.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Sony product if I thought it fit some need I have, but certainly the root kit fiasco left a really bad taste in my mouth.
11-28-2014, 04:25 AM   #614
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The rootkit fiasco was certainly a showstopper for me at the time, though that would not stop me, today, buying a quite different kind of Sony product like a camera. What is stopping me is that Sony and their cameras right now are having the easiest time of it they are likely to have. They also seem to be relying a lot on aggressive marketing and pricing would could be unsustainable in the longer term. Come back in a year by which time Canon and Nikon and maybe even Samsung will have done a few things. The other big beasts of the camera world aren't just going to sit around and let Sony walk all over them. It's too soon to know whether Sony has real staying power or will revert to their in-and-out habits with consumer goods when the going gets a whole lot tougher. I take my hat off to their sense of innovation, however. And their lossy RAW system is a real turnoff, for me at least.
11-28-2014, 04:48 AM   #615
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Back to the topic... What if Pentax does bring us that FF camera. Something boring like a 24mp Sony sensor in a Pentax DSLR shill. Then what? I really think it will only move if its pricetag is very unpentaxy.
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