[monochrome]

Much as I hated the guy... he was a talented man with a phrase.

He once personally and privately guided my daughter through a highly emotional event - the accidental death of her mentor - in a very grandfatherly way, for which I will be eternally grateful.

A long Tribute, if you're interested. My daughter and Sec'y Rumsfeld have parts.

---

Last edited by monochrome; 10-30-2014 at 08:43 AM.

[zoolander]

Well, do you like shooting with the Sony? Do you like the files out of it? Does it feel comfortable in the hand? If so, why would you want to switch to Pentax again?

With all this Photokina madness going on it may also be good to realize that raving about flashy new gear has nothing to do with actually taking photos.

edit: ah, you don't have the Sony yet. But it's still the same story: do you like it enough?

I don't mind the A7, its pretty sharp, but there isn't much in the way of lenses. You can forget about lens backwards compatibility with the Sony adapter having the translucent mirror cutting out 30% light, making low light use horrible. The EF adapter makes a joke out of L series AF speed too.

But the price of just over $1000 AUD for the body makes it attractive - but a Fujifilm X-A1 has better low light performance for a fraction of the price with lenses. Lots of trade-offs to ponder !

[XMACHINA]

*Sigh*

So, should I be accusing people on this site who spread misinformation about Sony gear (such as the false assertion that the a99 is the only FF Sony body with image-stabilization, and the one that Sony just "puts a Zeiss badge" on certain lenses of their own design), or who state as fact that Sony has abandoned A-Mount (despite the release of the a77 MkII as recently as this summer), or who talk about SLT as if it's completely ruinous to image quality, of being paid by Ricoh to write these things (perhaps to discourage the flight of Pentax users to a competing system)? Because it seems that its just fine to discuss Sony here on Pentaxfourm.com just so long as the comments are intended to trash or otherwise misrepresent the capabilities of Sony gear.

You can forget about lens backwards compatibility with the Sony adapter having the translucent mirror cutting out 30% light, making low light use horrible.

How do you define "low light use"? Would you kindly express that in terms of an ISO value that you'd like to be able to use?

Practically speaking, I find that SLT puts noise and detail retention on par with Sony's ASP-C sensors up to and including ISO 6400, after which there is a dramatic falloff in image quality. That's my experience with the a99, (which, as you know, has a similar 24MP sensor to the a7) and that perception is supported by DXO Mark signal-to-noise performance data:

Pentax K-3 versus Sony SLT Alpha 99 versus Pentax K-5 IIs - Side by side camera comparison - DxOMark.

Having stated that, I don't have much of any experience shooting at ISO values over ISO 6400; I've done it on occasion simply to see the results. There simply isn't a camera made that gets results at ISO above 6400 that I would consider useful. I'm always curious as to what people intend to shoot, handheld, at high ISO, and what they consider satisfactory image quality under those conditions: people seem not to mind flat tonality, weird color from blended interior light sources, motion blur, chromatic noise, and they'll use photos with these characteristics as examples of good low-light image quality. So I often find myself wondering if these same people would really notice a little more noise or few less tones.

And the great concern over high ISO performance is more odd in light of an apparent lack of concern over low ISO image quality. I was recently rather alarmed by the amount of luminance noise found in some portraits posted on DPR taken with a K-3 and the 77mm Limited at ISO levels under 400. Granted, it was what I consider "good noise," being that there was lots of detail retention and no "mushiness," and little-to-no chromatic noise (it seemed to be about the same noise level and quality of my K-5 at ISO 800, maybe even 1250) but that much noise at a mere ISO 320 doesn't seem to bode well for the preservation of subtle tonal and color transitions at ISO 400-800 which is definitely territory where I often have to go while shooting.

And, by the way, exactly how were you focusing during that low-light shooting that you did with Pentax cameras? The whole point of the SLT that you find so "horrible" is to allow for things like focus-peaking in the EVF which allows the user to check sharpness and to focus manually. Meanwhile there are people on this site complaining about how difficult it is to get sharp shots at f/1.4, or to use manual lenses because ASP-C viewfinders are useless for nailing focus at wide apertures and/or in low-light.

I wouldn't buy the a7 or it's variants with the intention of shooting with A-Mount lenses--exception made for shooting video. (I see no reason not to shoot A-Mount lenses on A-Mount camera bodies which I find perfectly cromulent.) But if I wanted to, by all reports the LA-EA4 adapter works very well on the a7/r/s, and I would take advantage of some of the better lenses. These are shot with an inferior SLT camera and one of three lenses: Zeiss ZA Planar T* 85mm f/1.4, Zeiss ZA Sonnar T* 135mm f/1.8, Sony 70-200mm f/2.8 G.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/members/1991-xmachina/albums/8943-misc/picture81308.jpg

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/members/1991-xmachina/albums/8943-misc/picture81302.jpg

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/members/1991-xmachina/albums/8943-misc/picture81307.jpg

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/members/1991-xmachina/albums/8943-misc/picture81306.jpg

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/members/1991-xmachina/albums/8943-misc/picture81305.jpg

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/members/1991-xmachina/albums/8943-misc/picture81304.jpg

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/members/1991-xmachina/albums/8943-misc/picture81303.jpg

And I don't know that you want to send people to YouTube as a means of down-talking the a7. Seems like almost every day one of the sites I visit posts a link to a YouTube video with some professional shooter giving a testimonial about selling CaNikon gear and going all in with the a7/R. You're the only person I've seen with his head down, kicking a tin can down the road, and saying "Aw Shucks!" because he owns an a7. Cheer the hell up! Is it really such a knock against your Sony camera that it doesn't autofocus another system's glass fast enough. Just wondering, how fast does the EF 85mm f/1.2 L autofocus on a Pentax body?

-XM

[zoolander]

How do you define "low light use"? Would you kindly express that in terms of an ISO value that you'd like to be able to use?

Practically speaking, I find that SLT puts noise and detail retention on par with Sony's ASP-C sensors up to and including ISO 6400, after which there is a dramatic falloff in image quality. That's my experience with the a99, (which, as you know, has a similar 24MP sensor to the a7) and that perception is supported by DXO Mark signal-to-noise performance data:

My first DSLR was a Nikon d3000, and it was good to ISO 800. My second camera was a Sony A65 and it was good to ISO 1600. My third camera was a Pentax K-5 which is good to ISO 3200 (I'm talking printable).

The A65 was a fantastic camera, but it did have some flaws. Like at night, inside with the house lights on, the "low light" performance was pretty bad due to the translucent mirror deflecting 30% of the light. Side by side, the K-5 gathered much more light in such instances. SLT's have there downside, which is in dim light its reflecting 30% of the light.

You can un-clench, and let your undies un-bunch now.

*Sigh*

So, should I be accusing people on this site who spread misinformation about Sony gear (such as the false assertion that the a99 is the only FF Sony body with image-stabilization, and the one that Sony just "puts a Zeiss badge" on certain lenses of their own design), or who state as fact that Sony has abandoned A-Mount (despite the release of the a77 MkII as recently as this summer), or who talk about SLT as if it's completely ruinous to image quality, of being paid by Ricoh to write these things (perhaps to discourage the flight of Pentax users to a competing system)? Because it seems that its just fine to discuss Sony here on Pentaxfourm.com just so long as the comments are intended to trash or otherwise misrepresent the capabilities of Sony gear.

Hey dude, I didn't say anything of the sort against Sony. My A65 was pretty darn good, but my K-5 was svelte. My A65 had zero mirror slap, "Steady Shot" was up to 4.5 stops, the AF was really fast. But it didn't have "Horizon Correction" nor a couple of other things I got with the K-5.

And no, I am not employed by Ricoh, I'm working in a dead end job which I hate BTW! If only I could get a job working for Ricoh or Pentax - that would be sweet - I just don't have any actual skills they need ! Maybe a writer for Pentax commercials, seeing how the previous K-S1 commercial was ........ kinda crap ! You know the one, where the young people are jumping into a pool with music playing, and we don't really see the camera until the end.

I wouldn't buy the a7 or it's variants with the intention of shooting with A-Mount lenses--exception made for shooting video. (I see no reason not to shoot A-Mount lenses on A-Mount camera bodies which I find perfectly cromulent.) But if I wanted to, by all reports the LA-EA4 adapter works very well on the a7/r/s, and I would take advantage of some of the better lenses. These are shot with an inferior SLT camera and one of three lenses: Zeiss ZA Planar T* 85mm f/1.4, Zeiss ZA Sonnar T* 135mm f/1.8, Sony 70-200mm f/2.8 G.

You see, this is where I'm different. If I were to buy an A7 - which I really like and am very impressed with - I would like to be able to use the A-mount or old Minolta lenses on an adapter which does not have the translucent mirror in it. I mean, there are some pretty sweet Minolta lenses out there on Ebay, and they're not too pricey. Shoving the mirror in an adapter for a "Mirrorless" camera ......... is kinda stupid don't you think. If I'm going mirrorless I MEAN I'M GOING MIRRORLESS ! Okay Sony !.

And I don't know that you want to send people to YouTube as a means of down-talking the a7.

If you go to youtube and search EF lenses on the A7 and see the performance, its hardly worth it. The EF adapter for the Canon EOS-M works equally bad with EF lenses. This is what I mean by backwards compatibility - you're not quite getting it with Canon OR Sony. Even with the K-01, the AF was really slow, but the EF lenses on an A7 or EOS-M where it focuses through the entire range, then steps down gradually to find focus - I mean, its kinda sad ! When I heard that those mirrorless systems can take an adapter with electronic coupling with aperture and AF, I was like wow, that really cool, but when you look into the performance, it ain't so cool after all. Sony and Canon want you to by the FE or M mount lenses.

(Edit - the EF adapter for EOS-M and A7 is kind of like a street/fist fight, nobody stops and does a full stretch out, before they have a fight on the street. With those adapters when you AF, the lens stretches through the whole range, and then starts to find focus through slow steps. Its as if the lens zooooms forward, and then zooms back (stretching out), okay now I'm ready (reverse clenching fingers together), lets focus forward, no, a little more, no, a little more, no, a little more, no, a little more, bingo there it is ! Okay thats it I'm done ! see ya good night !")

As with every system, there are trade offs. Right now, the A7 looks really really good, its lens range needs to mature. But mirrorless is definitely the future, and Sony and Fujifilm are well ahead of the game already. As for Pentax and canikon, they're too busy trying to protect their SLR business rather than trying to innovate a new mirrorless system which customers want to eagerly take up.

---

Last edited by zoolander; 11-08-2014 at 04:12 AM.

[Kunzite]

As for Pentax and canikon, they're too busy trying to protect their SLR business rather than trying to innovate a new mirrorless system which customers want to eagerly take up.

Do they? I know I don't, and I know others who still prefer optical reflex viewfinders. Perhaps Pentax is actually protecting their traditional customers? People who actually like Pentax products, instead of asking "just rebadge brand S product, because it's so much better than your own"

[Rondec]

My first DSLR was a Nikon d3000, and it was good to ISO 800. My second camera was a Sony A65 and it was good to ISO 1600. My third camera was a Pentax K-5 which is good to ISO 3200 (I'm talking printable).

The A65 was a fantastic camera, but it did have some flaws. Like at night, inside with the house lights on, the "low light" performance was pretty bad due to the translucent mirror deflecting 30% of the light. Side by side, the K-5 gathered much more light in such instances. SLT's have there downside, which is in dim light its reflecting 30% of the light.

You can un-clench, and let your undies un-bunch now.



Hey dude, I didn't say anything of the sort against Sony. My A65 was pretty darn good, but my K-5 was svelte. My A65 had zero mirror slap, "Steady Shot" was up to 4.5 stops, the AF was really fast. But it didn't have "Horizon Correction" nor a couple of other things I got with the K-5.

And no, I am not employed by Ricoh, I'm working in a dead end job which I hate BTW! If only I could get a job working for Ricoh or Pentax - that would be sweet - I just don't have any actual skills they need ! Maybe a writer for Pentax commercials, seeing how the previous K-S1 commercial was ........ kinda crap ! You know the one, where the young people are jumping into a pool with music playing, and we don't really see the camera until the end.



You see, this is where I'm different. If I were to buy an A7 - which I really like and am very impressed with - I would like to be able to use the A-mount or old Minolta lenses on an adapter which does not have the translucent mirror in it. I mean, there are some pretty sweet Minolta lenses out there on Ebay, and they're not too pricey. Shoving the mirror in an adapter for a "Mirrorless" camera ......... is kinda stupid don't you think. If I'm going mirrorless I MEAN I'M GOING MIRRORLESS ! Okay Sony !.



If you go to youtube and search EF lenses on the A7 and see the performance, its hardly worth it. The EF adapter for the Canon EOS-M works equally bad with EF lenses. This is what I mean by backwards compatibility - you're not quite getting it with Canon OR Sony. Even with the K-01, the AF was really slow, but the EF lenses on an A7 or EOS-M where it focuses through the entire range, then steps down gradually to find focus - I mean, its kinda sad ! When I heard that those mirrorless systems can take an adapter with electronic coupling with aperture and AF, I was like wow, that really cool, but when you look into the performance, it ain't so cool after all. Sony and Canon want you to by the FE or M mount lenses.

(Edit - the EF adapter for EOS-M and A7 is kind of like a street/fist fight, nobody stops and does a full stretch out, before they have a fight on the street. With those adapters when you AF, the lens stretches through the whole range, and then starts to find focus through slow steps. Its as if the lens zooooms forward, and then zooms back (stretching out), okay now I'm ready (reverse clenching fingers together), lets focus forward, no, a little more, no, a little more, no, a little more, no, a little more, bingo there it is ! Okay thats it I'm done ! see ya good night !")

As with every system, there are trade offs. Right now, the A7 looks really really good, its lens range needs to mature. But mirrorless is definitely the future, and Sony and Fujifilm are well ahead of the game already. As for Pentax and canikon, they're too busy trying to protect their SLR business rather than trying to innovate a new mirrorless system which customers want to eagerly take up.

I think they gave up too quickly. I think a K-01 with PD auto focus sensors on the sensor, an EVF, and better frame rate/buffer would really sell well. But Pentax got killed by folks on the K-01 camera and decided that people didn't really want a camera like that. "People just want mirrorless for small size and we'll cover that with the Q," is what they have said or, words to that effect.

Oh well, I'm sure they'll try again down the road. I just hope they keep the k mount. The whole adapter thing drives me crazy with mirrorless. It's not like I'm going to go out and buy a bunch of leica lenses or FD Mount lenses. I just want k mount lenses to mount and focus and meter the way they are supposed to.

[RGlasel]

And I don't know that you want to send people to YouTube as a means of down-talking the a7

Cripes, this is a discussion about cameras, inanimate objects some people use to record photographic images with. If anyone feels their psyche is threatened by the failing of particular inanimate objects to adequately display their own value as a human being, I suggest private counseling instead of online dueling.

[monochrome]

Because it seems that its just fine to discuss Sony here on Pentaxfourm.com just so long as the comments are intended to trash or otherwise misrepresent the capabilities of Sony gear.

IF one was going to make accusations of trolling on these threads it would be much more reasonable to suggest Sony pays people to denigrate Pentax and puff its products rather than the other way round - on every single thread on every single subject. There was a time that a certain (former) member literally twisted a LX film post into a NEX is better argument.

One couldn't even Ignore the dude because one would have to read the Quotes other people posted.

It's a Pentax Forum. There's even a sub-Forum for other companies' gear. I personally don't like Sony products but I rarely criticize them - I just don't buy them. I can't abide anything about Canon. I probably should have started with Nikon but I'm too far down the road now and I like Pentax.

But really, what do you expect?

[patarok]

Sony is Ok. but as monochrome wrote here above, this thread is about the upcoming Pentax FF camera. We sincerely hope for people who know a little bit more and do a post here or post your hopes here but otherwise, i completely agree.

Trolls GO AWAY !!!!!!! This is a PENTAX and somehow a Ricoh Forum. People who don't like pentax should stop their silly argumenting. Go and buy yourself a Canikonysung. And troll around on some other forum. We don't need you. Here are people that are into the Pentax brand,
for:


Simple and speedy handling.

no folderols and doohickeys.

M42 flange focal distance.

PK focal distance.

what means a lot of great lenses, they can use on their system without paying some company the money,
with which other people could feed their whole village for a year.

lightweight lenses instead of lens dimensions for people with a size-complex (Leice users for instance who pay a lot of money for their gear, also don't give anything about that) but don't worry guys, pentax will feed you, when the FF-SLR hits the market, laaaarge diameter.

Weather resistancy and therefore available lenses(affordable).

Excellent lenses.
(i actually don't believe any mag that attests the same lens 2 completely different values for lp/mm just because there is another mount on it. There are some examples i could link here, but that won't make any sense, because anyways there will be some well paid troll around here, who will try to convince the weak with more silly arguments that somehow sound scientifical. Just keep in mind, that nikon and pentax nearly have the same flange-focal distance when you read such paid reviews.)

Really tough gear!! I dropped my K-5II from about 1 m with the DA 18-55 WR. not any defect. zip none, nada. works as before.
It was mounted on a tripod in my garden when real heavy rain was falling and when i fetched it after half an hour of heavy rain. it still worked like a charm.

real good support. (i didn't have any problem when i once claimed my warranty. on an older DSLR)

and SHAKE REDUCTION THAT WILL WORK WITH ANY LENS!!!
---I have to admit, that i also own a nikon 1, because the slt sector of Ricoh imaging needs a lift.
---(Or they should revamp the GXR, or at least bring out a module that fully supports K-Mount lenses.
---But here comes why i am rather with Pentax-Ricoh instead of Nikon.
---You bought a Nikon 1 and when you mount a manual lens onto it, the only way you can use it is in manual mode.

ON a PENTAX you can mount any manual lens and you have AV mode available. that means you make use of the working aperture function on your lens and voila the K sets all the other values for you. You can even try your luck in auto mode.

We have Catch in Focus!!!! and we don't pay as much for it, as one would pay for a used car!

and i nearly forgot... on my K-5II i even got focus confirmation with the split prism focusing screen mounted, when in mid-AF mode...

[JimmyDranox]

About trolls, what I have noticed, at least in the last year, is that I didn't see much propaganda for Canon and Nikon, other than the usual and rare comparison. But I've seen a lot for Sony. ???

Thinking twice, is quiet easy to understand. Is difficult for a firm with many cameras, many mounts, but not enough lenses to gain costumers from Canon and Nikon. So, they try here, thinking that Pentax folks are very angry that there is no FF Pentax yet. And yes, there are some Pentax users angry about that.

So, Ricoh and Pentax, HURRY UP WITH THE FF!!

[reh321]

About trolls, what I have noticed, at least in the last year, is that I didn't see much propaganda for Canon and Nikon, other than the usual and rare comparison. But I've seen a lot for Sony. ???

Thinking twice, is quiet easy to understand. Is difficult for a firm with many cameras, many mounts, but not enough lenses to gain costumers from Canon and Nikon. So, they try here, thinking that Pentax folks are very angry that there is no FF Pentax yet. And yes, there are some Pentax users angry about that.

So, Ricoh and Pentax, HURRY UP WITH THE FF!!

My view is different.


I think we are in one of those rare times when everything changes - sort of what happened in computing when micro computers moved in. Within a few years, terminal manufacturers disappeared, or at least became minor players, IBM lost its influence as the major player, and for the next thirty years, Microsoft became the major player.


Likewise, in photography Pentax lost serious ground around the transition from mostly film to mostly digital. Now two more major changes are happening simultaneously: (1) the point-and-shoot market is dying under a tsunami of cell phones, (2) mirror-less cameras are becoming a major form, if not the major form, of crop-sensor camera. That means that Nikon and Canon will lose ground; I don't know how they will respond, but things could become messy. Pentax will need to paddle hard; ignoring where the market is going won't help. I believe they also need to be working with mirror-less technology, but yes, a FF product will be good

[quant2325]

There are three interesting parts in the answer about FF.

Quote: ''This is a question that we cannot disclose, but as I said in the 645Z questions, we think that the 645Z is one of our answers toward the high-end of customers.

At the same time, we know that the full-frame market is growing. So, our engineers are engaged in the development of full-frames, but with the question of when to launch/release the product, we will want to carefully study the market trend.'' End quote.

I'd like to see the same super-aggressive pricing that Ricoh did with the 645Z. Wishful thinking...

[philbaum]

My view is different.


I think we are in one of those rare times when everything changes - sort of what happened in computing when micro computers moved in. Within a few years, terminal manufacturers disappeared, or at least became minor players, IBM lost its influence as the major player, and for the next thirty years, Microsoft became the major player.


Likewise, in photography Pentax lost serious ground around the transition from mostly film to mostly digital. Now two more major changes are happening simultaneously: (1) the point-and-shoot market is dying under a tsunami of cell phones, (2) mirror-less cameras are becoming a major form, if not the major form, of crop-sensor camera. That means that Nikon and Canon will lose ground; I don't know how they will respond, but things could become messy. Pentax will need to paddle hard; ignoring where the market is going won't help. I believe they also need to be working with mirror-less technology, but yes, a FF product will be good

I agree with you. What's also different about the current situation is a lot of change is not coming from the traditional camera mfr, but from relatively outside participants like Samsung, Sony, and the smart phone mfr. Change can make us cranky if we're happy with the status quo.

As far as i can recall, Ricoh didn't say whether the potential FF is going to be a DSLR or some other type of FF. But i've been trying to puzzle out what options Canon or NIkon have if, and its a big if, they decide to make a short registration mirrorless mount for a large sensor. They can't abandon the legacy mount any more than pentax can abandon the K-mount. As a practical matter, a camera company would have to follow the same strategy that Sony mapped out - one continues to support the legacy mount while creating the new mount system. I tried to go back and find the interview where Canon indicated they are going to introduce a large sensor mirrorless, but i was unable to come up with the video. I did find a quote, but it just said they were continuing to work on mirrorless.

[Kunzite]

As far as i can recall, Ricoh didn't say whether the potential FF is going to be a DSLR or some other type of FF.

Actually they said that, several times.

[patarok]

i am still hoping for interchangeable mirror box.

semitransparent mirrorbox, simple dslr mirror box, mirrorless box - all WR of course and modular viewfinders also... *lol*
optical viewfinder, EVF, waist level finder. I call mine the D-LX.... *smile*