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09-22-2014, 09:53 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by LarsW Quote
From those images it looks like this is what's coming:
The amzing full-frame 1.5 litre SMC Pentax-FA 1500ml F1.4 AL Limited Coffee Mug!
No, looks more like halve a gallon to me

09-22-2014, 10:02 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by LarsW Quote
The amzing full-frame 1.5 litre SMC Pentax-FA 1500ml F1.4 AL Limited Coffee Mug!
This is good news. I prefer my lenses small, and my coffee (and beer) mugs large.
09-22-2014, 11:47 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Just a few data, Pål, and I will stop here (I have given an answer to your first point before):

- the non-stabilized Sony 70-200mm F2.8 G SSM has 19 elements and its optical design dates back to 2003 (Minolta AF 70-200mm f/2.8 APO G D SSM)
- the stabilized Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II (2009) has 21 elements
- the stabilized Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II (2010) has 23 elements

So 20 elements for a 70-200 f/2.8 to be announced in 2015 doesn't particularly "point to optical stabilization".
You haven't given an answer to the points above. The long zoom has three switches. There is a recent lens with the same switch configuration. The 90 macro for the 645. It has an MF/AF switch identical in design as the upppermost switch (on the image posted above) on the long zoom. It has probably the same function on the latter. The 90mm also have two switches side-by-side, just like the long zoom has. They are for SR ON/OFF and focus limit. I see no reason for the switches on the new lenses to serve some other purposes (if so, what purposes?). In addition, the two new zooms are remarkably thick; uniformly so, not only at the front. It is reasonable that this is due to the SR implementation.....
09-22-2014, 12:10 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
In addition, the two new zooms are remarkably thick; uniformly so, not only at the front. It is reasonable that this is due to the SR implementation.....
Internal focusing due to WR is also likely.

09-22-2014, 01:39 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You haven't given an answer to the points above. The long zoom has three switches. There is a recent lens with the same switch configuration. The 90 macro for the 645. It has an MF/AF switch identical in design as the uppermost switch (on the image posted above) on the long zoom. It has probably the same function on the latter. The 90mm also have two switches side-by-side, just like the long zoom has. They are for SR ON/OFF and focus limit. I see no reason for the switches on the new lenses to serve some other purposes (if so, what purposes?). In addition, the two new zooms are remarkably thick; uniformly so, not only at the front. It is reasonable that this is due to the SR implementation.....
And there is a recent lens, a K mount lens like the two prototypes / mock-ups, not a 645 one, a long lens like the two prototypes / mock-ups, not a macro lens nor a wide angle zoom, with the same switch configuration: DA 560 f/5.6 has two switches side-by-side, just like the two prototypes / mock-ups have. They are for MF/AF and focus limiter. To quote your own words, "I see no reason for the (side-by-side) switches on the new lenses to serve some other purposes."

As for the thickness of the lenses: uniform thickness is even more caused by ring-type USM than a stabilisation group, which is very localised by nature. I am not stating that these lenses will benefit from some kind of ring-type USM, only that this is a possibility, to be taken in consideration the same way you consider these lenses shall be stabilised.

As for the third switch on the 150-450ish lens: my interpretation is a zoom lock to prevent such a heavy lens, the zooming of which is not internal, from creeping. Again, it's a possibility, nothing more, nothing less.

And the four push-buttons (we now know there are four of them on all four cardinal points of the ring) are definitely focus-hold buttons.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
(...)

Also the round shapes (some claim these are buttons, but I'm not sure about that) are found on all four cardinal points of the ring.

(...)

Last edited by Mistral75; 09-22-2014 at 01:46 PM.
09-22-2014, 02:24 PM   #186
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All this speculation about what the buttons and switched mean is just speculation. If I were showing a mock-up of a lens not yet released I might intentionally put meaningless elements on the mockup just to confuse my competitors.

That seems to be working out quite well with my potential customers, too.
09-22-2014, 02:30 PM   #187
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Should I mention that there are at least 2 "buttons" (they're not working buttons, just some round things which could be replaced with buttons) on the longer lens? <ducks>
09-22-2014, 02:39 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Should I mention that there are at least 2 "buttons" (they're not working buttons, just some round things which could be replaced with buttons) on the longer lens? <ducks>
You definitely may and there are apparently four of them:
QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
(...)

Also the round shapes (some claim these are buttons, but I'm not sure about that) are found on all four cardinal points of the ring.

(...)
and my interpretation is just above:
QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
(...) the four push-buttons (we now know there are four of them on all four cardinal points of the ring) are definitely focus-hold buttons.


09-22-2014, 04:07 PM - 1 Like   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobdobbs Quote
If they can sell a K-3 at $1000 and still make money (at their presumably "high-margin") then surely they can sell a full-frame version of that exact camera at $2000 and either maintain or better their margin

There's NO WAY a decent full-frame sensor costs $1000 more in volume than the sensor in the K-3. Not even $500 more, I'm sure.
Meanwhile, I am convinced profit margin is the key word in all of Pentax FF discussion.

I believe to have estimated cost of purchase of a FF sensor to be around $300 in the past. So, manufacturing cost wouldn't be the problem exactly as you say.

But the window of opportunity may already have closed (like I predicted many years ago), meaning that the cost of developping of all the new FF lenses (fast primes, Limiteds are ok, F2.8 zooms) and a new FF body (shutter, mirror) and tooling in the factory can't be spread over enough units sold. Simply because an FF camera is a 1500$ affair in 2015 and because there are so few committed Pentaxians left who could or would buy it (the digital camera market has shrunk to 1/4th size from its peak value and the Pentax market SHARE has shrunk the same amount).

Given the recent interviews done by Ricoh executives, I think I can read the signs on the wall: They want to do high margin products aiming for good profit only. And they will do FF but are still evaluating the market.

This reminds me of Schneider-Kreuznach: At Photokina 2012 they announced 3 high quality SLR primes for Nikon and Canon, to appear in 2013. At Photokina 2014 they announced the exact same 3 lenses, to appear in 2015 ... And this was an official announcement. What Pentax said was inofficial thoughts expressed during an interview.

Showing lab models (mockups?) of two FF lenses w/o markings behind glass again is exactly what to expect in that situation. The lens probably has two buttons because somebody thought "two would be cool" ... the new tele zooms from Sigma and Samsung show how true prototypes of 2015 lenses would look like.

Or in other words: the kind of speech we hear from Ricoh is exactly what to expect if they know they SHOULD do it (because of loosing customers otherwise). But at the same time they know they cannot decide IF to do (because they cannot compile a convincing business case to the Ricoh board).

I am sorry to say, my dear friends. But they may tell the exact same story every Photokina until Pentax K is discontinued (they actually already did Photokina 2012). I.e., they blatantly lie at us. Or at least until Ricoh accepts a revenue-oriented loss-accepting strategy to reconquer lost ground. Which may never happen within a 100,000 employee operation until they sell the brand. After all, Ricoh can live perfectly without a camera division. Remember IBM selling their ThinkPad business?

Actually, I think it is time to start a Kickstarter project to do a decent FE/K AF adapter and leave the higher end "high margin" K bodies for something else. We don't exist to be milked. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the great Pentax APSC products. What I wrote only applies to those waiting for Pentax FF.

Last edited by falconeye; 09-22-2014 at 04:31 PM.
09-22-2014, 05:15 PM - 1 Like   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
who exactly is that "Ricoh representative"?

it is just rumor ... just like in many years. someone walk in camera store and heard Pentax rep talking to store owner about Pentax FF will debut in that year photokina.

no, don't believe those.
I wrote to Ricoh head office in Japan and got a proper written reply from one of their executives. I did not expect to get a reply, but was happily surprised when I did. It's no rumor and, no, I did not overhear anyone talking. I asked a question in a politely worded letter and I got an equally polite answer. No rumor.

---------- Post added 09-23-14 at 12:26 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by redcat Quote
Could you please share with us their reply ?
Sorry for the delay in replying.
The response received was:

"Dear Sir,
We regret to inform you that we currently do not have actual plan to put the full-frame DSLR camera on the market.
However, we will certainly transfer your comment to the related section."


So, what does that tell us?
They have a FF Pentax under development. ("the full-frame") ("to the related section") They even have a "section" working on it.
But sadly: "we currently do not have actual plan to put the full-frame DSLR camera on the market" So, not sure if that means that they have no plan, or if their plan is not far enough advanced.

As I have agreed to keep the staff member's details confidential, I have not posted name rank and serial number here.
09-22-2014, 06:46 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I am sorry to say, my dear friends. But they may tell the exact same story every Photokina until Pentax K is discontinued (they actually already did Photokina 2012). I.e., they blatantly lie at us. Or at least until Ricoh accepts a revenue-oriented loss-accepting strategy to reconquer lost ground. Which may never happen within a 100,000 employee operation until they sell the brand. After all, Ricoh can live perfectly without a camera division. Remember IBM selling their ThinkPad business?
I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you're being overly-pessimistic. I was a happy Ricoh GRD user for many years before I even considered Pentax. When the merger/takeover happened, I started looking at Pentax. I was intrigued by the Q because of the extremely positive things actual owners said about it, and bought one during the fire sale. Then, when I began looking to replace my Nikon D90, the K-5 II looked like a much better option to me than the D7100. So, now I'm a pretty dedicated Pentax user, all because I was initially a happy Ricoh user.

I feel like Ricoh has always been forthcoming with their customers, at least when it comes to cameras. Their products are very well thought-out and innovative (does anybody else do snap-focus?), without a lot of the nonsense you see in Canikon products. They tend to have restraint and seem to be interested in putting out a quality product, not just making money. There's probably some classic Japanese/Samurai family principle at work here that I don't know about. When I watch Akira Kurosawa's High and Low (great movie, watch it if you haven't), I feel like the guys running Ricoh are like the guy in that movie who would never consider making cheap, inferior shoes just to make a short-term profit, even if it leads to his downfall.

Anyway, I'm with monochrome on this one -- I'm willing to give Ricoh some time to sort this out, and I think they will. I don't think they will abandon us, and our investments in their products. They just don't seem like that kind of company.
09-22-2014, 07:08 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobdobbs Quote
I appreciate what you're saying, but I think you're being overly-pessimistic.
I agree that this is a rather pessimistic speculation and I hope it will be wrong.

However, how on Earth can Ricoh now put its emphasis on earning money and high margins? (That's what their managers tell us first)

It's like Sony buying Minolta and then focussing on profits and high margins. We all know that Sony did the opposite and there really was no alternative.

I WANT to believe what Ricoh says in the interviews. But my stomach insists that it smells. But as I got my FF elsewhere, I can wait further too
09-22-2014, 07:17 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
However, how on Earth can Ricoh now put its emphasis on earning money and high margins? (That's what their managers tell us first)
Honestly, I don't know, but that's just because I don't understand the camera business. All I know is, in my experience, the folks as Ricoh are straight-shooters. If Canon or Nikon had bought Pentax, or just about any American company, I'd be very worried. I don't think this is an IBM/Thinkpad/Lenovo situation at all. Ricoh is a "decent" company -- they may not give you exactly what you want, but at the same time they're not out to screw you either.
09-22-2014, 09:31 PM - 1 Like   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I.e., they blatantly lie at us.
I have trouble finding that plausible.

The lie "We are solely focusing on APS-C cameras" would make sense, as it would encourage current Pentax users to upgrade to a K-3, etc.

The lie "We will be launching an FF model in the foreseeable future"
  • does relatively little to keep old school Pentaxians on board (they've heard it all before),
  • is of interest to a shrinking subset of Pentaxians only, and
  • is likely to impede on current APS-C sales.
It just does not seem to make sense to (unofficially) communicate that an FF launch is imminent, if the latter is not planned.

What about the explanation that the 645Z has been the centre of attention at Pentax -- they have even developed a tethering software for it! -- and now that 645Z development has concluded, the FF development can proceed with reasonable speed?

I agree with you that Pentax lost a lot of valuable time, but I hope it is not too late yet and I certainly do not believe they are trying to mislead their hardcore user base.
09-22-2014, 09:53 PM   #195
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i think it's a little useless to argue on the buttons and switches if much of the design may change in the coming months (hopefully not years), as what others posted about the progress of the 60-250 before it was released. The mockup we see right now may not be the unannounced lenses' final form.
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