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09-23-2014, 06:45 PM   #286
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I knew there was the "Royal We" as in "We Are Not Amused" but i didn't realize there was a "Royal You". You learn something new every day. I feel quite Royal now, I think I'll abolish myself, at least for the night.
I can think of someone (not you) I wish would just go take a sit on the Royal Throne.

09-23-2014, 08:27 PM   #287
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobdobbs Quote
Ok, so, just so I understand this: If I'm on a limited budget, and I have x amount of dollars, Pentax glass is "better", but if I have an unlimited budget and an infinite amount of dollars, Fuji glass is "better".

Does that sum up your position?
Pretty much. The DA 35mm 2.4 is a great little lens for the money. The construction is a little on the light side, which is how they keep the price down.

I wouldn't say Fuji is for the unlimited budget, but I would buy the Fuji 56mm F/1.2 over the Leica 50mm f/.95 and it costs $11K...... even if money were no object. Everyone has their own idea of what a great lens is. For a lot of people it only needs to say "Pentax" on it. I don't really care about brand. Pentax has some great lenses, and for the money some of them are great, but that doesn't make them the best. Leica makes some great lenses, but for the money, I'm not sure they are really that great.

The Fuji 56mm F/1.2 is expensive, but compared to the other premium 55-58mm lenses. Its really not that expensive.
The Fuji 35mm F/1.4 is $499 which again is not that expensive. Its priced between the DA 35mm AL and the DA 35mm Limited and less than the 31mm Ltd.
The Fuji 23mm F/1.4 is $799 and the Pentax 27mm F/3.2 is $700.... Given the speed of the Fuji I don't think its that expensive compared to the Pentax.

The announced Fuji 50-140mm F/2.8 OIS WS can be pre-ordered for $1,499. The Pentax 50-135mm F/2.8 is $1,396

I think most of people who think the Fuji lenses are SO expensive probably have never shot with the Fuji system or really looked at prices. For the image quality they are not that expensive.
09-23-2014, 08:53 PM   #288
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Pretty much. The DA 35mm 2.4 is a great little lens for the money. The construction is a little on the light side, which is how they keep the price down.

I wouldn't say Fuji is for the unlimited budget, but I would buy the Fuji 56mm F/1.2 over the Leica 50mm f/.95 and it costs $11K...... even if money were no object. Everyone has their own idea of what a great lens is. For a lot of people it only needs to say "Pentax" on it. I don't really care about brand. Pentax has some great lenses, and for the money some of them are great, but that doesn't make them the best. Leica makes some great lenses, but for the money, I'm not sure they are really that great.

The Fuji 56mm F/1.2 is expensive, but compared to the other premium 55-58mm lenses. Its really not that expensive.
The Fuji 35mm F/1.4 is $499 which again is not that expensive. Its priced between the DA 35mm AL and the DA 35mm Limited and less than the 31mm Ltd.
The Fuji 23mm F/1.4 is $799 and the Pentax 27mm F/3.2 is $700.... Given the speed of the Fuji I don't think its that expensive compared to the Pentax.

The announced Fuji 50-140mm F/2.8 OIS WS can be pre-ordered for $1,499. The Pentax 50-135mm F/2.8 is $1,396

I think most of people who think the Fuji lenses are SO expensive probably have never shot with the Fuji system or really looked at prices. For the image quality they are not that expensive.
I think some Pentax users (like me) are still in a bit of shock over the huge street price hikes from 2 years ago. In purely quantitative terms, many Pentax lenses don't measure up very well against some other makes. Funnily enough, buying and selling lenses over the years, I don't currently own a lens that I bought new.

Some of the good Pentax lenses still have a couple things going for them: 1) they are well-built and small, and 2) they can produce lovely images. But there is not a lot of speed in the Pentax lineup, and an attribute like "small" can be a positive or a negative, depending on the user.

Fuji seems like a pretty great system, if the primes were stabilized or the bodies had IBIS I'd be seriously tempted to switch.
09-23-2014, 09:31 PM - 6 Likes   #289
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Because the K-mount is built for a FF sensor and lens. The Fuji X-mount is built for APS-C from the ground up.

I wouldn't recommend putting your DA primes up against the Fuji. 14mm? Fuji definitely wins. 21/23mm Fuji definitely wins. 56mm/55mm Fuji definitely wins. Pentax wins with the 31/35mm, but that's about it. I haven't tried the Fuji 18mm, 27mm, or the 60mm, but the ones I have tried have had fantastic IQ. The Fuji bodies are not as good as the K-3, but Fuji has better glass.

And why not? I've done motorcycle stories with a friend that shoots Fuji. He sends me his files and I work with them before sending them off to the magazine. I don't open up the Fuji files and think, "Oh my, these files are so much better than what I get from my DA lenses and the K-5/K-3." There's no way you're able to tell which camera took what photo unless you look at the EXIF. The publisher doesn't ask which camera took which photo. The designer doesn't ask. The readers don't ask. There's nothing in it.

This whole idea of "winning" has everything to do with camerageeking and nothing to do with photography.

09-23-2014, 09:40 PM   #290
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I think some Pentax users (like me) are still in a bit of shock over the huge street price hikes from 2 years ago. In purely quantitative terms, many Pentax lenses don't measure up very well against some other makes. Funnily enough, buying and selling lenses over the years, I don't currently own a lens that I bought new.

Some of the good Pentax lenses still have a couple things going for them: 1) they are well-built and small, and 2) they can produce lovely images. But there is not a lot of speed in the Pentax lineup, and an attribute like "small" can be a positive or a negative, depending on the user.

Fuji seems like a pretty great system, if the primes were stabilized or the bodies had IBIS I'd be seriously tempted to switch.
There are advantages to size and it goes both ways. I shot with the X-T1 and the 56mm for a couple of events. Its too small for my hands for shooting all day. Even with the grip I still don't like the ergonomics nearly as much as the K-3. Fuji still has work to do with their bodies. CDAF is still not up to speed. The EVF is nice, but still not OVF quality. IBIS is a great feature, but shooting events, people are always moving around and I have to keep shutter speed up anyway. I definitely prefer IBIS. I'm not sold on the Trans-X sensor, but a friend did a series of 24" x 36" prints that were really stunning and the colors and skin tones were really good.

---------- Post added 09-23-14 at 11:42 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It's not sharp, it's really bad technically.
He thinks they're good. Just leave it alone.
09-23-2014, 10:11 PM   #291
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I just don't know if Ricoh has the ability to get back to making lenses like the Asahi Pentax days. IF Ricoh is going to attract new buyers away from Sony, Olympus, Fuji or even Samsung they are going to have come up with something that sets them apart. K-mount is of little value to people who are not already vested in the brand. I think Ricoh will eventually bring a full frame body to market and it will be a solid product. Sony bought Minolta and the A900 has the Minolta DNA. I love using that camera. The A99 however is just a cold camera. Yes, it creates cleaner files, but its not really enjoyable to shoot with. I wonder if we will see the Pentax DNA disappear under Ricoh like we have seen at Sony. I like what they did with the design of the DA 20-40mm LTD, but optically I was disappointed to see such a slow lens with such a narrow zoom range turn in an average optical performance. Does Ricoh have what it takes to develop compelling lenses?

Last edited by Parallax; 09-24-2014 at 05:04 AM. Reason: Removed quote of a deleted post.
09-23-2014, 11:39 PM   #292
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There are advantages to size and it goes both ways. I shot with the X-T1 and the 56mm for a couple of events. Its too small for my hands for shooting all day. Even with the grip I still don't like the ergonomics nearly as much as the K-3. Fuji still has work to do with their bodies. CDAF is still not up to speed. The EVF is nice, but still not OVF quality. IBIS is a great feature, but shooting events, people are always moving around and I have to keep shutter speed up anyway. I definitely prefer IBIS. I'm not sold on the Trans-X sensor, but a friend did a series of 24" x 36" prints that were really stunning and the colors and skin tones were really good.

---------- Post added 09-23-14 at 11:42 PM ----------
I owned K7, K5 and K3 before I moved to Fuji XT1. So I can compare well. I always wished that Pentax makes digital version of the LX. Fuji made it.
All I have to say after ca 2 months is, that shooting with XT1 is more straightforward and more joy. I do not care about ISO at all, just set aperture and compensation. What I see I also get, thanks to mirrorless WYSIWYG.
AF is about the same speed compared to K3, if you use middle AF points area, where PDAF points work. Otherwise, CDAF is much more accurate than K3's PDAF. I always prefer accuracy over speed.
XT1 body is ca half of weight of K3. My hands are not big, but I understand that it could be a problem for somebody to access small buttons.
I was a big opponent of EVF. However, XT1's EVF is something amazing. Magnification (the best on the DSLR market, inc. full frame) is a joy for 40+. If you look then into K3 OVF, you have a feeling that you look in the opposite side of the telescope.
Well, lenses were the main reason to move. There is something strange with the Pentax today’s focus and target group definition. I liked my 21/3.2 but wished more speed. It is a classical focal length and that is simply missing at Pentax. Fuji XF23/1.4 is nice lens in "limited" quality (as many others, specifically XF56/1.2).
IBIS is probably not missing, since I see no motion blur. There is normally light enough with these lenses and shutter speeds above 1/30 are ok. Some Fuji zooms have lens stabilisation, ca 4EV.
And finally, there is also big difference in communication to users. Fuji says clearly, that full frame is NOT their focus and people still buy them. They have clear lens roadmap which they perform in time. I also appreciate new functionality in firmware upgrade, based on user feedback (electronic shutter up to 1/32000 e.g.) for camera, which is already 9 months on the market.

Anyway, I keep and still love my Pentax LX and 6x7.

Last edited by Jan67; 09-24-2014 at 12:45 AM.
09-24-2014, 02:32 AM   #293
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Does Ricoh have what it takes to develop compelling lenses?
I can't remember ever seeing a Ricoh camera being criticized for its lens. The criticisms were always leveled at the sensor performance or the price. Take a look at reviews of the GR, GX cameras and the GXR units. So I don't doubt Ricoh had the capability to make great lenses even before the Pentax engineers joined. The question is whether they plan to release the wide aperture lenses you want. I think they have to if they want to market a full frame system. Moreover, it almost looks to me like they have been deliberately avoiding conventional focal lengths and fast apertures throughout the DA era. My speculation is that Pentax has always had a long term plan to fill these gaps when they release a full frame system, but that they've been prevented by business circumstances. Pure speculation, I know, but it's what I choose to believe!

09-24-2014, 03:25 AM   #294
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobdobbs Quote
You know you can buy fish, right? And they're a lot cheaper than a boat.
I sit outside the fishmongers for two to three hours, then I go in and buy a fish. It's just like angling, but without having to buy all that expensive gear. That way I can buy more lenses.
09-24-2014, 03:33 AM   #295
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There are advantages to size and it goes both ways. I shot with the X-T1 and the 56mm for a couple of events. Its too small for my hands for shooting all day. Even with the grip I still don't like the ergonomics nearly as much as the K-3. Fuji still has work to do with their bodies. CDAF is still not up to speed. The EVF is nice, but still not OVF quality. IBIS is a great feature, but shooting events, people are always moving around and I have to keep shutter speed up anyway. I definitely prefer IBIS. I'm not sold on the Trans-X sensor, but a friend did a series of 24" x 36" prints that were really stunning and the colors and skin tones were really good.

---------- Post added 09-23-14 at 11:42 PM ----------



He thinks they're good. Just leave it alone.
Fuji makes nice cameras and lenses. They have really good jpeg engines -- significantly better than Pentax's engines. Performance, from what I have seen, if you don't mind post processing (I don't) is really not that much different. Really, they have K5-equivalent sensor (not sure if Fuji makes it themselves or not, but it is really about the same) and that's fine. The K3 doesn't really do much more than the K5, except get a little more resolution at low iso.

The question was asked why Fuji users don't complain about the lack of a full frame option in the Fuji line up. I think the answer is that Fuji has made it clear that they aren't releasing full frame. I don't think their mount is full frame sensor compatible. Certainly none of their lenses are. So, people can't clamor to use their 56 f1.2 "the way it was intended," since it was intended to be used on a crop sensor.

The K mount on the other hand is by definition full frame compatible and many of the lenses would be usable (if not great) on a full frame sensor. In addition, since pre-Hoya days, Pentax has dropped hints about eventually going full frame. This sets up a lot of irritation as the years go by and full frame is not forth coming.

Even if Pentax would release full frame, there would still be complaining about prices, both of the bodies and the lenses. I don't foresee this being a cheap camera with cheap lenses. Of course, there will always be Tamron and Sigma as options if folks are OK with them.
09-24-2014, 03:55 AM   #296
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Are people really wondering where the FF meme in Pentax land is coming from?

Well, it is that easy:

The K mount is FF, many Pentaxians here on board have used FF K mount since 30, 20, or 10 years ago.

Then digital came and Pentax announced their FF digital SLR.

Too expensive, so as an interim solution, has gone with a smaller sensor not covering the image circle (aka crop).

Those who considered that a final solution (e.g., Olympus) have changed the mount once, or twice.

Those who didn't (Canon, Nikon, Leica, Konica-Minolta, Pentax) have kept the mount and upgraded the sensor to full frame, meanwhile.

Except that Pentax was bought once or twice and is late beyond comprehension.

I don't say the above to apply to all Pentaxians. But to apply to enough of them to explain the emotions when it comes to this subject. And why so few of them are left.
09-24-2014, 03:59 AM   #297
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the answer is that Fuji has made it clear that they aren't releasing full frame.
Never say never.

NEX E mount was also never originally considered as, or marketed as, a full-frame mount. But Sony thought, after a few years of NEX being APS-C only, that full-frame made technical and business sense for E mount. So they released several cameras (stills and video) that were full-frame E-mount, and created a whole new line of FE lenses to go with them. Third party lens makers followed.

Fuji could do the same. Business is business. New cameras and lenses to be sold, new opportunities to pursue.

---------- Post added 2014-09-24 at 09:15 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The K mount is FF, many Pentaxians here on board have used FF K mount since 30, 20, or 10 years ago.
My first SLR was a K-mount Ricoh [XR2S], shooting a few Pentax M lenses (and a few Metz flashes too). That history does indeed make me sympathetic to all those brands, especially since I still have all that gear, and it all still works fine.

However, few Pentaxians (or Metzians or Ricohians?) are totally blind to other brands just because of their personal camera history. Most will recognise the need to use 'the right tool for the job', and/or obtain the best 'bang for the buck'.

Pentax users are loyal, but not blindly so. Hence many experienced users may have moved on, tired of waiting for full-frame. But, on the other hand, many new users have joined the cult, ready to be upsold to full-frame the moment Pentax releases one.

Last edited by rawr; 09-24-2014 at 04:17 AM.
09-24-2014, 04:48 AM   #298
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The K mount is FF, many Pentaxians here on board have used FF K mount since 30, 20, or 10 years ago.
Only 30? I bought my second K-mount FF camera 32 years ago

QuoteQuote:
Except that Pentax was bought once or twice and is late beyond comprehension.
You're simplifying a bit at this point. Pentax did something the other vendors that kept their mount didn't do: They gave their full commitment to APS-C, so they churned out a rather unique set of lenses that is unlike the lens offerings of CaNikon. MinoltaKonicaSony is a different story: Yes, they've made A-mount FF DSLRs. But then they made the E mount, and actually managed to make lenses for the E mount that could easily have been FF compatible but which aren't (the 50mm 1.8), so the A7 cameras require yet again new lenses. I really hope Pentax can do better than that.
09-24-2014, 05:08 AM   #299
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It's interesting that within all this defense of Fuji there aren't the standard criticisms that have been levied against Pentax here and elsewhere. Stuff like:

- They are short-sighted for not providing an upgrade path to users to full-frame.
- APS-C is doomed as full-frame prices come down. They will be doomed if they don't release full frame
- They can't be considered a serious camera company if they don't offer a full-frame camera
- Pros shoot full frame. As a market they are smaller but they buy products with higher margins and are very influential. If you don't offer full frame then you just can't compete
- Full frame is better. I need/want it. If they don't offer full-frame, I won't even consider them.

So why do these claimed market dynamics apply to Pentax but not Fuji?
09-24-2014, 05:38 AM   #300
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
It's interesting that within all this defense of Fuji there aren't the standard criticisms that have been levied against Pentax here and elsewhere. Stuff like:

- They are short-sighted for not providing an upgrade path to users to full-frame.
- APS-C is doomed as full-frame prices come down. They will be doomed if they don't release full frame
- They can't be considered a serious camera company if they don't offer a full-frame camera
- Pros shoot full frame. As a market they are smaller but they buy products with higher margins and are very influential. If you don't offer full frame then you just can't compete
- Full frame is better. I need/want it. If they don't offer full-frame, I won't even consider them.

So why do these claimed market dynamics apply to Pentax but not Fuji?
Has anybody claimed those dynamics don't apply to Fuji then?

It was my understanding that the two are compared so much because their situation is so alike.
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