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10-01-2014, 02:10 PM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
It seems like it would make sense to sell the television business.
Exactly. They seem to be finally getting some traction in the camera business and they must see something good there considering how aggressive they've been lately.

10-01-2014, 03:03 PM   #377
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobdobbs Quote
Exactly. They seem to be finally getting some traction in the camera business and they must see something good there considering how aggressive they've been lately.
Cameras will never be the next Walkman.
10-01-2014, 05:30 PM - 2 Likes   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Cameras will never be the next Walkman.
True, but becoming the Intel for imaging sensors could ...

And soon, imaging sensors will be everywhere, not just phones, tablets, notebooks and cameras. But cars, watches, glasses, frigerators, TVs, traffic lights, ... trillions. I already own a dozen or so (image sensors, not cameras).

Last edited by falconeye; 10-01-2014 at 05:38 PM.
10-01-2014, 05:48 PM   #379
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It could a crazy rumor but facts are real
Image sensors is not part of the Image business(camera business.) It's parts of the components business, that business make money.
In the image business , the Professional business(TV camera) make money , the consumer portion loose money(Full frame are part of that business)

10-02-2014, 02:31 AM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
True, but becoming the Intel for imaging sensors could ...

And soon, imaging sensors will be everywhere, not just phones, tablets, notebooks and cameras. But cars, watches, glasses, frigerators, TVs, traffic lights, ... trillions. I already own a dozen or so (image sensors, not cameras).
I recently saw a very interesting documentary explaining that "soon" all those image sensor will be connected and working together. To form 3D data, data for google earth, virtual presence, etc...

So... PhotocamerasAreDoomed!
10-02-2014, 04:50 AM   #381
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10-02-2014, 10:47 AM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobmaxja Quote
Image sensors is not part of the Image business(camera business.)
That's known to me. Still, I guess Sony regards the own image business to be key to their lead in the sensor business.

It never was an issue for Intel because everybody can assemble a PC (and Intel always designed motherboards and chipsets with their CPUs). But it would be an issue for Sony if they wouldn't build cameras at all levels (phone to full frame) themselves.

And after all, the mirrorless cameras within Sony Image business are doing well, accounting for the lion's share in recent the increase of the MILC market. And then take the RX line, esp. RX100. They pawn what eventually will become the future mainstream of cameras.
10-02-2014, 11:14 AM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
That's known to me. Still, I guess Sony regards the own image business to be key to their lead in the sensor business.

It never was an issue for Intel because everybody can assemble a PC (and Intel always designed motherboards and chipsets with their CPUs). But it would be an issue for Sony if they wouldn't build cameras at all levels (phone to full frame) themselves.

And after all, the mirrorless cameras within Sony Image business are doing well, accounting for the lion's share in recent the increase of the MILC market. And then take the RX line, esp. RX100. They pawn what eventually will become the future mainstream of cameras.
My understand is that sensors key point is having a good silicon fab available. This explain why many camera maker have no sensor themselves but also why Sony is not protected at all from other silicon maker like Intel, ST Microelectronics, Samsung, AMD and so on. I think you don't see Intel here are there more money per wafer to make with micro processors than imaging sensors. But if sensor become a sudden eldorado, many new players may arrive. They may miss the specifics of how making a good sensor, but they may have as much if more knowledge on how to make chips.

Sony is also very bad as using and optimizing its own sensor. Typically with the same sensor, Pentax and Nikon manage to get better results than Sony. We will see when one of them start to use the new high isos sensor if they manage again to get more out of it. I would not be surprized that despite this 12MP thing, Nikon or Pentax would get more out of the same technology in 24 or 36MP version than Sony with their 12MP.

I do not see Sony protected at all here. In the medium term, Samsung could beat them to the game. They are like Sony building all kind of things, but they make money and they market cap is more than 8 time the one of sony. At the begining the Samsung phone where not so good compared to iphones. Now Samsung dominate the market, and I highly doubt they use sony sensors for their phones.

10-02-2014, 12:10 PM   #384
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
(...)

I highly doubt they use sony sensors for their phones.
They do for some of their cameras (NX Mini comes to mind).
10-02-2014, 02:51 PM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If you want to compare lenses on the web, then Flickr is your friend. If you ever get around to actually making a print, then you should rent the Fuji and give it a try. If you are happy with the quality you have, then good for you. You will save a lot of money.
Did that, actually... For my taste I disliked the rendering of most Fuji lenses except one. While I think we miss a real sharp wide angle in Pentax land, overall fuji offering doesn't look better to me and has much less choice, many more holes. There also less options for cheap lenses like the DA35 & DA50 or to a degree the good price you can get on used DA21, & DA70.

if thoses mythical 4 ev gains with organic sensor are true, I may change my point of view... But this would just mean i could wait for the next Pentax APSC sensor with this and never have to think FF again as it would just because totally unecessary technology. But say if K mount miss it's mythical organic sensor for a long time, that would be an argument to go Fuji. But that all for the moment and it is unlikely that other maker than Fuji doesn't make their ways to some good sensors.

Fuji has just too much hype. They are good, but not perfect.

As for 50MP+ sensor, they are totally overkill for most people with 1000$ prime and f/4 max as a prerequisite.
10-02-2014, 02:58 PM   #386
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QuoteQuote:
Did that, actually... For my taste I disliked the rendering of most Fuji lenses except one. While I think we miss a real sharp wide angle in Pentax land, overall fuji offering doesn't look better to me and has much less choice, many more holes. There also less options for cheap lenses like the DA35 & DA50 or to a degree the good price you can get on used DA21, & DA70.
Which begs the question, did the person who posed the question actually do it, or was he predicting the result from an intellectual position and guessing what your response would be?
10-02-2014, 03:26 PM   #387
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Did that, actually... For my taste I disliked the rendering of most Fuji lenses except one. While I think we miss a real sharp wide angle in Pentax land, overall fuji offering doesn't look better to me and has much less choice, many more holes. There also less options for cheap lenses like the DA35 & DA50 or to a degree the good price you can get on used DA21, & DA70.

if thoses mythical 4 ev gains with organic sensor are true, I may change my point of view... But this would just mean i could wait for the next Pentax APSC sensor with this and never have to think FF again as it would just because totally unecessary technology. But say if K mount miss it's mythical organic sensor for a long time, that would be an argument to go Fuji. But that all for the moment and it is unlikely that other maker than Fuji doesn't make their ways to some good sensors.

Fuji has just too much hype. They are good, but not perfect.

As for 50MP+ sensor, they are totally overkill for most people with 1000$ prime and f/4 max as a prerequisite.
Fuji and Panasonic have a joint venture in the sensor fabrication. Panasonic claims "Panasonic's semiconductor device technology has improved the signal saturation value by four folds compared to that of conventional CMOS technology". The prototype sensor had a DR of 88dB. The Fuji organic layer "This boosts sensor sensitivity by 1.2 times compared to conventional sensors to deliver clear images even in low light."

The Fuji people seem to get pretty excited when they talk about what is coming. They seem to think the new technology will make people forget about FF. We will see.
10-02-2014, 03:30 PM   #388
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The Fuji people seem to get pretty excited when they talk about what is coming. They seem to think the new technology will make people forget about FF. We will see.
They get paid to be really excited about what they're making. That's their job. It's all part of selling, but that has nothing to do with if their product is in anyway better than their competition.

But that doesn't answer the question, have you compared prints taken with Fuji with prints taken with Pentax systems?
10-02-2014, 04:36 PM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
My understand is that sensors key point is having a good silicon fab available.
That's not my understanding though. Design capabilities are equally important, manufacturing can be outsourced to 3rd parties like Toshiba. Controlling both is probably key to leadership and only Samsung seems to be in a similiar position, although behind Sony.
10-02-2014, 04:50 PM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
They get paid to be really excited about what they're making. That's their job. It's all part of selling, but that has nothing to do with if their product is in anyway better than their competition.

But that doesn't answer the question, have you compared prints taken with Fuji with prints taken with Pentax systems?
Then Ricoh must suck at selling. They are pretty boring people and they put together the worst show booths of anyone I have ever seen.

Yes. I have looked a quite a few prints from Fuji. I have compared the Canon 5DII with 85L to the XT-1 wit the 56mm F/1.2. As I said in another thread we compared the 56mm to the 85L in prints when it came out. I've compared them to my K-3 and a friends A99. I currently know 3 professional wedding photographers who have added Fuji X-mount bodies to their work bags. The guy who got me interested in shooting Pentax again sold his K-mount gear and shoots with a XT1 and a D800. The 56mm that I have been playing with belongs to him. The current Fuji Trans-X sensor is not as good as the K-3. I can run the K-3 files through DxO PRIME and get better results than I can with the Fuji and the Lightroom. For OOC quality thought the Fuji wins.

If I were to buy into Fuji it would not be for the XT1 and the current sensor. I think the XT1 body is too small, the build quality is not as good, the ergonomics are not as good. The K-3 is a better camera. What is interesting about Fuji is the quality of glass. The 56mm F/1.2 smokes the DA* 55mm F/1.4 in every possible way. AF speed. Sharpness. Color & contrast. Bokeh. The 23mm is much better than the 21mm Ltd. The XC 14mm is much better than the 14mm DA. The 35mm lenses are about equal. If I buy into the Fuji system it is because they are building better glass because I think the next generation bodies will be a big step up. But the real reason people move away from Pentax is they loose faith in the brands ability to provide what they want. If I buy into the Fuji system it will be because I have higher future expectations of Fuji than I do of Pentax.
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