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10-02-2014, 06:01 PM   #391
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I was going to say 'but the Fuji 14mm is $800'!!!!!

Then I remembered Pentax charges $900 for their 14mm now. KahRayZee.

10-02-2014, 06:16 PM   #392
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I was going to say 'but the Fuji 14mm is $800'!!!!!

Then I remembered Pentax charges $900 for their 14mm now. KahRayZee.
As much as I like the fact that Fuji is aggressive, innovative, customer and quality oriented, I don't think I will be buying an X-mount in the near future. I just think that they have the best vision and communication (marketing) of anyone in the industry. I like the A7 concept, but its still rather a rough 1st generation body with limited ability. The A7r with the new Zeiss Loxia line are very appealing, but its still limiting. Right now it looks like the Nikon D750 will be where my money goes for the next few years.
10-02-2014, 06:20 PM   #393
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I don't think I'll ever buy a Fuji. The way they lied about their ISO with the X100 is something that will take me a long time to forget.

"Hey, look everybody how great my pictures are at ISO6400... er, ISO1000."
10-02-2014, 07:20 PM   #394
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I have to say, that's quite the rant, and I know another guy who knows 3 guys , professional wedding photographers who have all switched to Olympus 4/3s. So I know all these guys moving to different systems to go with their high end gear.. so you're saying the camera market is dynamic and people change systems and try out new gear... it happens with all camera brands,

QuoteQuote:
The 56mm F/1.2 smokes the DA* 55mm F/1.4 in every possible way. AF speed. Sharpness. Color & contrast. Bokeh. The 23mm is much better than the 21mm Ltd. The XC 14mm is much better than the 14mm DA.
I would expect that any system will have lenses that do well against their competition. But you have to look at everything. Does fujji have lenses that smoke the 31 ltd, the 43 ltd, the 77 ltd, any of the DA*s. besides the 55 1.4? Hey I don't know, those are just the questions that come to mind when you say this kind of stuff. That and I have no idea if you're right. I've always liked my 21 for it's rendering, not for it's sharpness. So, while I'm sure you think the Fuji 23 smokes it, I'm not sure I would...

I'm just not seeing what you see. I looked up a few fuji 23 images, for some reason I'm not as impressed as you are.. such is life. There could be different interpretations. In my world ƒ1.4 images are pretty much useless, what a lens does at ƒ5.6 or ƒ8 is more important. So you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this.

QuoteQuote:
For OOC quality thought the Fuji wins.
One of the most disturbing quotes i've seen recently. Not even going there.

10-02-2014, 07:37 PM - 1 Like   #395
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I have to say, that's quite the rant, and I know another guy who knows 3 guys , professional wedding photographers who have all switched to Olympus 4/3s. So I know all these guys moving to different systems to go with their high end gear.. so you're saying the camera market is dynamic and people change systems and try out new gear... it happens with all camera brands,



I would expect that any system will have lenses that do well against their competition. But you have to look at everything. Does fujji have lenses that smoke the 31 ltd, the 43 ltd, the 77 ltd, any of the DA*s. besides the 55 1.4? Hey I don't know, those are just the questions that come to mind when you say this kind of stuff. That and I have no idea if you're right. I've always liked my 21 for it's rendering, not for it's sharpness. So, while I'm sure you think the Fuji 23 smokes it, I'm not sure I would...

I'm just not seeing what you see. I looked up a few fuji 23 images, for some reason I'm not as impressed as you are.. such is life. There could be different interpretations. In my world 1.4 images are pretty much useless, what a lens does at 5.6 or 8 is more important. So you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this.


One of the most disturbing quotes i've seen recently. Not even going there.
10 lines is rant? LOL....
I chose those focal lengths because Pentax has matching options to compare and I have used them. I can't really comment on the lenses I haven't used. There are a lot of lenses that Fuji doesn't have, but for a system that is 3 years old they have done a great job with what they have produced.

I'm sure F/1.4 is useless to you, but for a large number of people it has a practical application. That's why they make the lenses.

You are right. We are never going to see eye to eye, so why do you keep commenting on my posts? I make my living shooting people and events. My needs are very different than yours.
10-02-2014, 07:54 PM   #396
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I was going to say 'but the Fuji 14mm is $800'!!!!!

Then I remembered Pentax charges $900 for their 14mm now. KahRayZee.
Seriously, $900. What a world, what a world...
10-02-2014, 11:26 PM   #397
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I'm sure F/1.4 is useless to you, but for a large number of people it has a practical application. That's why they make the lenses.
While I think this is true, I also think there many that think they want/need f/1.4 just because it is a better stat. That's terrible for them because it make them unhappy if they don't have f/1.4 lenses or make them spend a lot to aquire them !

I don't like personnally bokeh for bokeh where most of the main subject is out of focus. In most occasions, this is what f/1.4 give you (if you ask, I own f/1.4 & f/1.8 lenses). I also think that for short focals, the utility is pretty limited because you'd want everything to be in focus on one side and on the other side, when you don't want, the lens will fail to show significant bokeh for object that are at close-up distance. This is even more true with APSC.
10-02-2014, 11:39 PM   #398
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The 23mm is much better than the 21mm Ltd
The fact that you compared the DA21mm f/3.2 limited to the Fujinon 23mm f/1.4 tells me you don't get the point of the DA21's design - you compared a pancake lens to an ultra fast prime. I'm sure if pentax really wanted to they could have produced a 21mm f/1.4 lens that would have performed just as well - but the lens would have been huge. The DA21mm f/3.2 is designed to be small and convienient. Fuji didn't care how big their 23mm f/1.4 got, they had a short registration distance to work with and that gave their lens design an inherent advantage.

It is like comparing the Leica 50mm f/1.0 Noctilux-M to the Canon EF 50mm f/1.0L - both lenses are designed for completely different mounts and registration distances. So it shouldn't be surprising at all that the Canon EF 50mm f/1.0 lens was outperformed by the Noctilux in pretty much every way, the only advantage the SLR lens had was that it was more accurate at close focus distances - which is the whole point of using an SLR, you can see exactly where the lens is focusing unlike RF cameras.


Last edited by Digitalis; 10-02-2014 at 11:48 PM.
10-03-2014, 04:46 AM   #399
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The fact that you compared the DA21mm f/3.2 limited to the Fujinon 23mm f/1.4 tells me you don't get the point of the DA21's design - you compared a pancake lens to an ultra fast prime. I'm sure if pentax really wanted to they could have produced a 21mm f/1.4 lens that would have performed just as well - but the lens would have been huge. The DA21mm f/3.2 is designed to be small and convienient. Fuji didn't care how big their 23mm f/1.4 got, they had a short registration distance to work with and that gave their lens design an inherent advantage.

It is like comparing the Leica 50mm f/1.0 Noctilux-M to the Canon EF 50mm f/1.0L - both lenses are designed for completely different mounts and registration distances. So it shouldn't be surprising at all that the Canon EF 50mm f/1.0 lens was outperformed by the Noctilux in pretty much every way, the only advantage the SLR lens had was that it was more accurate at close focus distances - which is the whole point of using an SLR, you can see exactly where the lens is focusing unlike RF cameras.
I fully agree, a better comparison for me seems to be the 18mm f/2 or 27mm f/2. that share this panckage philosophy.

As for Fujifilm they still not have available now anything to compete again DA70, FA77, DFA100, DA200, DA300, DA560 in term of focal length. While they are after compactness they have nothing that is small for same focal as DA15, DA35, DA40, FA43, FA50, DA70, FA77. As for price, Fujifilm kit lens is good, but they don't have anything that can compare in price/quality to DA35 or DA50.

Of course many explain they invest for the future on fujifilm... Like if "invest" was the right term. If they brough Fujifilm share invest would be the term. As to buy now something that doesn't do what you need because in the future a new camera/lens could... This look more like wasted money than anyway. And this apply also to Pentax. Either was the company offer know is relevant to your need or not.

Reality is nothing is perfect. Fuji lack lenses, fuji lack good sensors & good raws, fuji lack innexpensives lenses, fuji lack tele primes, fuji lack optical viewfinder.

Pentax lack fast wide angle lenses and electronic viewfinders.
10-03-2014, 07:09 AM   #400
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The fact that you compared the DA21mm f/3.2 limited to the Fujinon 23mm f/1.4 tells me you don't get the point of the DA21's design - you compared a pancake lens to an ultra fast prime. I'm sure if pentax really wanted to they could have produced a 21mm f/1.4 lens that would have performed just as well - but the lens would have been huge. The DA21mm f/3.2 is designed to be small and convienient. Fuji didn't care how big their 23mm f/1.4 got, they had a short registration distance to work with and that gave their lens design an inherent advantage.
I understand it. I know what the compromises are. The are 2mm apart in focal length and there is a $100 dollar difference in price. They both are designed to give an APS-C user a FoV similar to 35mm. The both serve the same purpose in each camera's line up. Because of the short register distance of the body, once the 23mm is mounted on the Fuji body it has an overall camera/lens size that is with in a few mm of the K-3 w/21mm. Fuji does have an advantage with its registration distance. They can design faster, higher quality glass and keep the overall body/lens package the same size as slower pancakes mounted on DSLRs. They can take the space wasted on the mirror box and give it to the lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Of course many explain they invest for the future on fujifilm... Like if "invest" was the right term. If they brough Fujifilm share invest would be the term. As to buy now something that doesn't do what you need because in the future a new camera/lens could... This look more like wasted money than anyway. And this apply also to Pentax. Either was the company offer know is relevant to your need or not.
Actually its pretty common. I left Canon and sold my 5D original because the 5DII wasn't what I wanted and I didn't need HD video. I didn't see Canon catching Sony with sensor tech. I left Canon because of my future expectations. I sold my Olympus E-3 because of my future expectation of the Olympus 4/3 system. Many, many people have let Pentax and K-mount because of future expectation.

I sold my E-3 and picked up a K-7, and at the time I didn't really expect to stay with Pentax that long. I was primarily shooting my 5D and Contax 645, so the K-7 was my kayaking/backpacking body and I got it cheap enough that if it fell in the lake, no problem. The K-3 produces better files than the Canon 5D, so the 5D and all my L glass has been sold. I now shoot with the K-3 a good bit and my expectation and needs of the system have changed a little. My Cntax 645 already has a buyer. I just need to decide how I'm going to replace it, and what system I want to invest in. And yes. It is an investment. I know I can sell my 31mm for as much as I paid for it. That is why I bought it over cheaper lenses that might be optically great, but wont hold their value.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Reality is nothing is perfect. Fuji lack lenses, fuji lack good sensors & good raws, fuji lack innexpensives lenses, fuji lack tele primes, fuji lack optical viewfinder.
Yes. In my post above I list all of the reasons why I probably wont be buying a Fuji body in the near future. Fuji has only been making the x-mount for 3 years, so of course they lack lenses. People are buying into the system and its future. That is why the road map is so important. That is the same reason people have been leaving Pentax. Its future has been in question several times.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
As for Fujifilm they still not have available now anything to compete again DA70, FA77, DFA100, DA200, DA300, DA560 in term of focal length. While they are after compactness they have nothing that is small for same focal as DA15, DA35, DA40, FA43, FA50, DA70, FA77. As for price, Fujifilm kit lens is good, but they don't have anything that can compare in price/quality to DA35 or DA50.
Nobody is using the lens by itself. The Fuji bodies are thin enough that even though the lenses might be a little bigger or longer than the Pentax version, by the time you mount them on the thinner X-mount body the overall package is about the same. To use the XT1 w/23mm as an example. The Registration distance of the K-mount is 45.46mm by itself. The Fuji 23mm lens is 60mm overall. The difference in size and weight between the Fuji XT1 w/23mm and a K-3 w/21mm is negligible, but the Fuji 23mm is faster and sharper without the concessions made for the pancake design of the 21mm. If all you do is carry around lenses without a body, then Pentax gives you a size advantage.

You don't really understand what Fuji is doing or who their market is. Nobody I know is shooting Fuji exclusively. Fuji is supplementing other professional system. I'm sure we can find someone who is shooting wedding with Fuji exclusively, but they would be an extremely small minority. Fuji isn't there yet. No, Fuji doen't have a DA560mm. It would be pointless for them to design one. Fuji is not trying to make a "jack of all trades- master of none" system. They are focused on a narrow segment of the market and because they aren't trying t crank out plastic fantastics or 500mm specialty lenses, they can focus on the hand full of lenses their target customers actually need.

Last edited by Winder; 10-03-2014 at 07:38 AM.
10-03-2014, 09:39 AM   #401
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From an "investment" point of view you are not a dealer, you don't make money on lenses and camera bodies. You want to satisfy your hoby or have tool for your work, the more money your spend on that, the more you add to the cost.

If you say to me I buy Fuji as an additionnal system for the fun and to try it, it is true. If you say I spend because I trust it for the long term I still trust you.

But in no way it is investment. What the best lens would take in money in a few years is at best 1 day of work. Negligeable. And that for the best lens, most will loose value. Bodies always loose value.

The money that many doing that seems to spend on camera gear (like at 1000-2000$ per year at least) could give 10000-20000$ after ten years and if well place get at least 50%, more likely 100% so you have likely more than 20000$ available, maybe up to 40000$. This is investment.

Nothing prevent to wait for the time the echosystem is complete before spending. It is not like you need some Fuji gear now so you have the right to spend some money on it tomorrow.

You know it is just gear, tools. And the more often you'll change, the more you'll spend. One guy that doesn't switch often, that just keep a few lenses and upgrade every few years will spend half and the more money you throw is unlikely to show in the picture your produce.

It is just money spent to play with gear. Not saying this should be forbidden or bad. But one should not lies to himself with terms like investement for consumer goods if he is not the maker/dealer of such goods.
10-03-2014, 09:51 AM   #402
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QuoteQuote:
I understand it. I know what the compromises are. The are 2mm apart in focal length and there is a $100 dollar difference in price. They both are designed to give an APS-C user a FoV similar to 35mm. The both serve the same purpose in each camera's line up. Because of the short register distance of the body, once the 23mm is mounted on the Fuji body it has an overall camera/lens size that is with in a few mm of the K-3 w/21mm. Fuji does have an advantage with its registration distance. They can design faster, higher quality glass and keep the overall body/lens package the same size as slower pancakes mounted on DSLRs. They can take the space wasted on the mirror box and give it to the lens.
Actually no you don't. The 21ltd comes with me on many occasions because it's 21mm, and it fits in my pocket. It's 100 grams, the Fuji is 300 grams... it doesn't fit just anywhere, and I probably don't even bring it. My 21 and 40XS come almost every where. My FA 50 and DA 35 go almost no where. You aren't understanding the dynamics here. A lens that gets left at home is useless. If you don't understand what a lens has to offer, how can you even make any kind of credible comparisons? On a Pentax forum, you might want to make the kinds of arguments that would appeal to Pentax shooters, or at least try to understand why they use the equipment they do.

Ask me, do I want ƒ1.4 300 grams compared to ƒ3.2 and 100 grams and I'll take the 100 grams. If you aren't talking to me, you aren't talking to Pentax shooters. Who the heck are you talking to here? Fuji shooters who hang out on the pentax forum? It get's old, people who don't buy into the way Pentax does things, hawking wares on the forum. Really, if want to hawk wares, hawk the ones where they brand is better than Pentax, at what Pentax does. That doesn't include a competing in lens that's 3 times the weight.

You try and be nice about things, but people just need to get beat over the head...

Last edited by normhead; 10-03-2014 at 09:56 AM.
10-03-2014, 10:04 AM   #403
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I understand it. I know what the compromises are. The are 2mm apart in focal length and there is a $100 dollar difference in price. They both are designed to give an APS-C user a FoV similar to 35mm. The both serve the same purpose in each camera's line up. Because of the short register distance of the body, once the 23mm is mounted on the Fuji body it has an overall camera/lens size that is with in a few mm of the K-3 w/21mm. Fuji does have an advantage with its registration distance. They can design faster, higher quality glass and keep the overall body/lens package the same size as slower pancakes mounted on DSLRs. They can take the space wasted on the mirror box and give it to the lens.


Actually its pretty common. I left Canon and sold my 5D original because the 5DII wasn't what I wanted and I didn't need HD video. I didn't see Canon catching Sony with sensor tech. I left Canon because of my future expectations. I sold my Olympus E-3 because of my future expectation of the Olympus 4/3 system. Many, many people have let Pentax and K-mount because of future expectation.

I sold my E-3 and picked up a K-7, and at the time I didn't really expect to stay with Pentax that long. I was primarily shooting my 5D and Contax 645, so the K-7 was my kayaking/backpacking body and I got it cheap enough that if it fell in the lake, no problem. The K-3 produces better files than the Canon 5D, so the 5D and all my L glass has been sold. I now shoot with the K-3 a good bit and my expectation and needs of the system have changed a little. My Cntax 645 already has a buyer. I just need to decide how I'm going to replace it, and what system I want to invest in. And yes. It is an investment. I know I can sell my 31mm for as much as I paid for it. That is why I bought it over cheaper lenses that might be optically great, but wont hold their value.

Yes. In my post above I list all of the reasons why I probably wont be buying a Fuji body in the near future. Fuji has only been making the x-mount for 3 years, so of course they lack lenses. People are buying into the system and its future. That is why the road map is so important. That is the same reason people have been leaving Pentax. Its future has been in question several times.



Nobody is using the lens by itself. The Fuji bodies are thin enough that even though the lenses might be a little bigger or longer than the Pentax version, by the time you mount them on the thinner X-mount body the overall package is about the same. To use the XT1 w/23mm as an example. The Registration distance of the K-mount is 45.46mm by itself. The Fuji 23mm lens is 60mm overall. The difference in size and weight between the Fuji XT1 w/23mm and a K-3 w/21mm is negligible, but the Fuji 23mm is faster and sharper without the concessions made for the pancake design of the 21mm. If all you do is carry around lenses without a body, then Pentax gives you a size advantage.

You don't really understand what Fuji is doing or who their market is. Nobody I know is shooting Fuji exclusively. Fuji is supplementing other professional system. I'm sure we can find someone who is shooting wedding with Fuji exclusively, but they would be an extremely small minority. Fuji isn't there yet. No, Fuji doen't have a DA560mm. It would be pointless for them to design one. Fuji is not trying to make a "jack of all trades- master of none" system. They are focused on a narrow segment of the market and because they aren't trying t crank out plastic fantastics or 500mm specialty lenses, they can focus on the hand full of lenses their target customers actually need.
I guess I would say that if I need fast and wide, that I would choose the Sigma 18-35 f1.8 over any of these lenses. More flexibility, sharp wide open. On the other hand, if I am shooting landscape, then a Pentax pancake is more what I would prefer to shoot with.
10-03-2014, 10:56 AM   #404
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The fact that you compared the DA21mm f/3.2 limited to the Fujinon 23mm f/1.4 tells me you don't get the point of the DA21's design - you compared a pancake lens to an ultra fast prime.
This is what I find frustrating. If size was my main concern, I'd go mirrorless. As it is, Pentax seem to focus on shaving 1cm off the lens depth, when the body is always going to be much bulkier than any mirrorless. And with the Pentax, you have an optical viewfinder, so f/3.2 gives you a darker image, whereas on the Fuji's EVF would compensate for the slower lens. People always overlook the benefits of a bright viewfinder and assume everyone just wants a fast lens to get narrow depth of field.

The FA 43 and FA 77 are both compact enough for me.
10-03-2014, 11:14 AM   #405
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Actually no you don't. The 21ltd comes with me on many occasions because it's 21mm, and it fits in my pocket. It's 100 grams, the Fuji is 300 grams... it doesn't fit just anywhere, and I probably don't even bring it. My 21 and 40XS come almost every where. My FA 50 and DA 35 go almost no where. You aren't understanding the dynamics here. A lens that gets left at home is useless. If you don't understand what a lens has to offer, how can you even make any kind of credible comparisons? On a Pentax forum, you might want to make the kinds of arguments that would appeal to Pentax shooters, or at least try to understand why they use the equipment they do.

Ask me, do I want 1.4 300 grams compared to 3.2 and 100 grams and I'll take the 100 grams. If you aren't talking to me, you aren't talking to Pentax shooters. Who the heck are you talking to here? Fuji shooters who hang out on the pentax forum? It get's old, people who don't buy into the way Pentax does things, hawking wares on the forum. Really, if want to hawk wares, hawk the ones where they brand is better than Pentax, at what Pentax does. That doesn't include a competing in lens that's 3 times the weight.

You try and be nice about things, but people just need to get beat over the head...
Plenty of people here are thrilled with the 31mm Limited, or the Sigma 18-35 F/1.8.

There's enough room in the Pentax family for more than one type of user.
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