[Uluru]

I am shocked at the sardonicism in this accusation - and to be shocked by something you've posted, at this point, is saying a lot.

I am not accusing anybody. I am talking to an imaginative, theoretical Pentax user, not any particular PF member. I believe a smart PF user can distinguish such writing. However, I shall now address your post in particular: perhaps it is about good time to come down off those high branches up in the Pentax tree of boredom, Monochrome, and maybe consider stop analysing every bit of someone's sentence with coloured glasses, if you have nothing clarifying to add. But if it is your favourite sport in lack of any Ricoh Imaging or Pentax related news before the CP+ 2015 and delivery of products around April/May 2015, then I somewhat feel sorry for all involuntary sparing partners of yours.

---

Last edited by Uluru; 10-20-2014 at 02:26 AM.

[Rondec]

I am not accusing anybody. I am talking to an imaginative, theoretical Pentax user, not any particular PF member. I believe a smart PF user can distinguish such writing. However, I shall now address your post in particular: perhaps it is about good time to come down off those high branches up in the Pentax tree of boredom, Monochrome, and maybe consider stop analysing every bit of someone's sentence with coloured glasses, if you have nothing clarifying to add. But if it is your favourite sport in lack of any Ricoh Imaging or Pentax related news before the CP+ 2015 and delivery of products around April/May 2015, then I somewhat feel sorry for all involuntary sparing partners of yours.

I can't say that any of the camera companies are sitting pretty right now. Sony's is probably in the best shape, but I have a feeling that mirrorless sales are bound to plateau as well, even though they have grown more than SLRs. Ricoh is in a lot better shape, purely due to not having the over-capacity that other companies have. It isn't a problem to have to run your camera lines full speed to keep up with demand, it is very much a problem to have so much product on the market that three generations old cameras are still being sold in big box stores at heavily discounted prices against your current line ups, as is the case with Canon and Nikon.

As to whether full frame will be successful for Pentax, it is hard to say. I would choose to wait for the actual product. I will just say that thus far, I feel that Ricoh has made wise (if not edge pushing) choices in designing cameras and I would expect something in the same vein. The K3 matches up quite well against current APS-C cameras on the market, as do the K50 and K500. Not sure about the K-S1, since it seems targeted at non-photographer photographers.

If Ricoh is making money (they are), I would expect good things to continue to come from their camera division.

[JPT]

The language Ricoh is using about full frame is very consistent in its vagueness. Asahi Camera magazine out today has an interview with Noboru Akahane of Ricoh. I'm paraphrasing, but he basically says, "We're constantly studying full frame. We hear the voices of Pentax users asking for full frame and we take that seriously. If we do full frame, it will be a unique Pentax kind of full frame".

It's difficult to decode what they mean by this, but ithey are clearly being very particular about what words they use and I think they are trying to play a delicate balancing act. On the one hand, they don't want to lose long-time DSLR users to rival systems so they want to hint at something, and on the other hand they know they can't undermine sales of their current products with the promise of some future wonder machine. Remember retailers have stock of Pentax products and Ricoh has a responsibility to help them sell it.

Ricoh has another difficult balancing act with the design of the camera. They need to produce something that is differentiated and innovative enough to attract the attention of new users, but not so different that it freaks out the old guard, a lot of whom basically seem to want nothing more than a D800 with Pentax on the front.

[ElJamoquio]

The language Ricoh is using about full frame is very consistent in its vagueness. Asahi Camera magazine out today has an interview with Noboru Akahane of Ricoh. I'm paraphrasing, but he basically says, "We're constantly studying full frame. We hear the voices of Pentax users asking for full frame and we take that seriously. If we do full frame, it will be a unique Pentax kind of full frame".

It's difficult to decode what they mean by this, but ithey are clearly being very particular about what words they use

They're being careful, but they're also being repetitive.

To reiterate what you said, slightly more explicitly: If a photographer thinks that Pentax is going to release the-camera-for-them in the next six months, that photographer is unlikely to jump ship.

[jatrax]

If we do full frame, it will be a unique Pentax kind of full frame

Hmm, I wonder what a "Pentax kind of full frame" is?

Ricoh has another difficult balancing act with the design of the camera. They need to produce something that is differentiated and innovative enough to attract the attention of new users, but not so different that it freaks out the old guard, a lot of whom basically seem to want nothing more than a D800 with Pentax on the front.

Well said. Though many seem to just want an LX with a sensor Or even just an LX, forget the sensor...........

[lytrytyr]

Hmm, I wonder what a "Pentax kind of full frame" is?

Well, since they like odd primes, I expect it to be 23mm x 37mm!

[Aristophanes]

They're being careful, but they're also being repetitive.

To reiterate what you said, slightly more explicitly: If a photographer thinks that Pentax is going to release the-camera-for-them in the next six months, that photographer is unlikely to jump ship.

To be clear, the FF market is not really all that large. It is maybe a few hundred thousands of units per year.

Price is a HUGE barrier.

Could Pentax make a go of FF both lenses and bodies for leas than 20,000 units per year? Doubtful. Hence the abundance of caution.

[ElJamoquio]

To be clear, the FF market is not really all that large. It is maybe a few hundred thousands of units per year.

Where are you getting your numbers?

[mecrox]

The language Ricoh is using about full frame is very consistent in its vagueness. Asahi Camera magazine out today has an interview with Noboru Akahane of Ricoh. I'm paraphrasing, but he basically says, "We're constantly studying full frame. We hear the voices of Pentax users asking for full frame and we take that seriously. If we do full frame, it will be a unique Pentax kind of full frame".

It's difficult to decode what they mean by this, but ithey are clearly being very particular about what words they use and I think they are trying to play a delicate balancing act. On the one hand, they don't want to lose long-time DSLR users to rival systems so they want to hint at something, and on the other hand they know they can't undermine sales of their current products with the promise of some future wonder machine. Remember retailers have stock of Pentax products and Ricoh has a responsibility to help them sell it.

Ricoh has another difficult balancing act with the design of the camera. They need to produce something that is differentiated and innovative enough to attract the attention of new users, but not so different that it freaks out the old guard, a lot of whom basically seem to want nothing more than a D800 with Pentax on the front.

I'm probably alone in this but I think the best way to tackle that balancing act is to take a pair of bolt cutters to the high wire and end it. Caution makes sense but after repeating "we are studying the market" for year after year, all credibility is gone. Now, another round of the old mantra just makes Ricoh look shifty and indecisive. If FF isn't on the cards, that is absolutely fine by me. There are plenty of FF cameras out there for those who do want one and plenty of other things Ricoh could do and do excellently, too. The FF question clogs up everything, including every interview Rich give, leaving the impression of rabbit in headlights: unable to move one way to FF, or another way to a modern mirrorless mount, or forward with a refreshed APS-C line, or a jump into quality video, and so on and so forth. One almost wants to say "For god's sake, guys, just make up your minds and move on, one way or the other, while you still have some customers left."

[Kunzite]

They moved forward with medium format. They moved forward with high-end APS-C camera. They'll be moving forward next with a "large aperture tele zoom" and a "high magnification tele zoom".
IIRC, they started talking about FF 2 years ago. Is that enough to lose all credibility?

[ElJamoquio]

They moved forward with medium format. They moved forward with high-end APS-C camera. They'll be moving forward next with a "large aperture tele zoom" and a "high magnification tele zoom".
IIRC, they started talking about FF 2 years ago. Is that enough to lose all credibility?

I don't think they're more or less credible than the average manufacturer.

In my view the words that they intended to be a 'full line manufacturer' were chosen quite deliberately... and that was 3-4 years ago. Not that it changes anything much.

[Aristophanes]

Where are you getting your numbers?

Multiple sources:

A Nail in the DX Coffin? | byThom | Thom Hogan

Others have commented similar. We'd be lucky if the FF market at bodies over $2,000 broke 10% of unit sales.

[RonHendriks1966]

Multiple sources:

A Nail in the DX Coffin? | byThom | Thom Hogan

Others have commented similar. We'd be lucky if the FF market at bodies over $2,000 broke 10% of unit sales.

So this is excluding D610, 6D and Sony a7 since they are below $2000. Well my gues is that we then are talking about a marketshare below 5 %.

[jatrax]

I'm probably alone in this but I think the best way to tackle that balancing act is to take a pair of bolt cutters to the high wire and end it. Caution makes sense but after repeating "we are studying the market" for year after year, all credibility is gone. Now, another round of the old mantra just makes Ricoh look shifty and indecisive. If FF isn't on the cards, that is absolutely fine by me. There are plenty of FF cameras out there for those who do want one and plenty of other things Ricoh could do and do excellently, too. The FF question clogs up everything, including every interview Rich give, leaving the impression of rabbit in headlights: unable to move one way to FF, or another way to a modern mirrorless mount, or forward with a refreshed APS-C line, or a jump into quality video, and so on and so forth. One almost wants to say "For god's sake, guys, just make up your minds and move on, one way or the other, while you still have some customers left."

Easy to say, impossible to do. They are not thinking this year or next year. Statements such as "we are not going to do FF" come back to haunt you 5 years down the road when FF sensor is the standard and APS-C is only in P&S cameras. No company makes such statements. Things change and no one wants to go back on their (official) word. Rumors and so on are not official. Official is a press release announcing a product, anything else is rumor.

FF camera is inevitable from Pentax. 2015? 2016? 2020? who knows but it will come. Maybe no current Pentax users are left but no way are they going to say NO it is not going to happen.

[Quicksand]

Maybe no current Pentax users are left but no way are they going to say NO it is not going to happen.

Hey now! Don't underestimate my inertia and apathy.