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10-22-2014, 04:44 AM   #631
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
As of now, there is no Pentax FF, at least on digital which is what actually matters for the future of Ricoh. Don't you think this might have some bearing on things? Look around sites like fredmiranda and you will see some absolutely superb images taken with the A7 family, as good as any shown anywhere. While that is down to great skill behind the camera, it also means that when used well the A7 family can produce top results. Sure, these cameras aren't perfect and in fact have some oft-remarked blemishes, but then what is perfect. However, they are out there right now and have been for a while too. You can buy one today and, another important point, for considerably less than a similar camera from Nikon, say. For many folks, affordable FF + adapter = bliss, whereas eye-watering sticker price FF + lens lock-in = purgatory. Your other points - that APS-C can beat FF with regard to ISO, DOF, bokeh, etc. - are a little wide of the mark? Plenty of reasons for preferring one over the other, but there is really no absolute bar to set things against. A good photographer would get a stunning shot out of either.

Bear in mind that almost no one (except on the internet where no one knows you aren't a billionaire ) has $$$ lying around to spend on camera equipment. The Sony approach has given many people an opportunity the old camera companies would never have allowed them. We should welcome such disruption even if the items aren't what we'd choose for ourselves. Here's a example: where I live, quite a lot of folks now buy camera equipment direct from Hong Kong using one of the many companies which now offer this service, like DigitalRev (the company deals with warranties and repairs). Were I do that that, I could buy a Sony A7 for less than the price of a K3 in a regular shop here and a Sony A7r for not much more. The traditional camera business is being eaten away by all sorts of pressures.
Sony is good spec wise and price wise. But it no so good in practice. Not it is bad. I mean any camera m4/3 or wider come with fantastic quality at low iso anyway. But this was more it is not the revolution some explain here. This is just a fair price offering with a really unimpressive lens offering (expensive, low specs, average optical quality, no choice). So if you plan to reuse your old manual lenses, that pretty good as you leverage fully the EVF. But that's about it. If you buy an A7 for it's own echosystem, it is one of worst available here.

10-22-2014, 04:53 AM   #632
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Sony is good spec wise and price wise. But it no so good in practice. Not it is bad. I mean any camera m4/3 or wider come with fantastic quality at low iso anyway. But this was more it is not the revolution some explain here. This is just a fair price offering with a really unimpressive lens offering (expensive, low specs, average optical quality, no choice). So if you plan to reuse your old manual lenses, that pretty good as you leverage fully the EVF. But that's about it. If you buy an A7 for it's own echosystem, it is one of worst available here.
I agree with you although there are one or two good FE lenses now, but my point is that Sony struck lucky through consequences they may not have foreseen . A combination of relatively inexpensive body + adapter + the huge, huge glut of legacy lenses out there = good news for canny buyers, and the word started to spread. And, as I said, in capable hands the results are excellent. It's just one more pressure and leakage of sales the old camera companies don't need but cannot stop.
10-22-2014, 09:18 AM   #633
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
When you look at the lenses specs they look expensive and quite big with slow apperture.
You must hate Pentax... I guess the slight increase in length is enough to turn you off?
10-22-2014, 12:07 PM   #634
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
You must hate Pentax... I guess the slight increase in length is enough to turn you off?
Sony A7 f/2.8 or faster primes: 35mm f/2.8 & 55mm f/1.8... That's all. On the roadmap, you'll get some prime, but no f/2.8 zoom.

Pentax f/2.8 or faster lenses: DA*16-50 f/2.8, FA31 f/1.8, FA35 f/2, DA35 f/2.4, DA35 ltd, FA43 f/1.9, DA*50-135, FA50 f/1.4, DA50 f/1.8, DA55 f/1.4, DA70 f/2.4, FA77 f/1.8, DFA 100 f/2.8, DA*200 f/2.8. On the roadmap, very likely a 70-200 f/2.8.

I do not see Pentax in such bad state, only missing would be a 24mm f/2.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 10-22-2014 at 12:14 PM.
10-22-2014, 03:18 PM   #635
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Sony A7 f/2.8 or faster primes: 35mm f/2.8 & 55mm f/1.8... That's all. On the roadmap, you'll get some prime, but no f/2.8 zoom.

Pentax f/2.8 or faster lenses: DA*16-50 f/2.8, FA31 f/1.8, FA35 f/2, DA35 f/2.4, DA35 ltd, FA43 f/1.9, DA*50-135, FA50 f/1.4, DA50 f/1.8, DA55 f/1.4, DA70 f/2.4, FA77 f/1.8, DFA 100 f/2.8, DA*200 f/2.8. On the roadmap, very likely a 70-200 f/2.8.

I do not see Pentax in such bad state, only missing would be a 24mm f/2.
Ah. I guess since I started out on APS-C, I still consider a full-frame F/4 fast enough. I certainly find F/4 on FF to be more capable than F/2.8 on APS-C, as predicted by equivalence.

So far every lens made for the FE mount is faster in my view than an APS-C F/2.8, with the half-exception of the kit zoom which is only F/5.6 (3.7) on the long end.
10-22-2014, 11:07 PM - 1 Like   #636
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Ah. I guess since I started out on APS-C, I still consider a full-frame F/4 fast enough. I certainly find F/4 on FF to be more capable than F/2.8 on APS-C, as predicted by equivalence.

So far every lens made for the FE mount is faster in my view than an APS-C F/2.8, with the half-exception of the kit zoom which is only F/5.6 (3.7) on the long end.
There 1.15EV difference between the 2 formats. For all practical purposes, one can consider the difference to be 1EV. So APS-C f/2.8 or FF f/4 is the same. The 0.15EV is not significant at all. And at least there is a real offering of fast primes in Pentax echosystem!

That being said, why one choose FF?
- sharper images... Both format now have 24MP and similar sharpness... You need to jump to 36MP FF to really get a difference... And pay much more. So that would be Sony A7r.
- more deph of field control. For practical purposes no sony lens for A7 echosystem achieve this.
- more high isos capability. For practical purposes no sony lens for A7 echosystem enable this. I can just use an f/2.8 zoom on my APSC, use half the iso and get same quality (with same dof). The gain with A7s is really small (0.3EV) and come with a tax of pushing 12MP + low pass filter.

What the A7 familly is also supposed to bring?
- More compactness... Well The APSC lenses are smaller due to the registration distance difference, negating any gain on the A7 familly body.

Really the only thing Sony A7 familly bring toward an APSC DSLR is the EVF. And that's in exchange for loosing an OVF. The other thing A7 echosystem bring is hype... It is the only FF echosystem where one don't get the benefits of FF while still paying a premium for it and having to buy even bulkier lenses.

A used 5D + used tamrons lenses will cost less and while not improving isos, will improve dof control. Get some D610 or equivalent + same tamron lenses, and you beat A7 familly for a fair price.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 10-22-2014 at 11:20 PM.
10-23-2014, 06:22 AM   #637
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Since I tend to try and use lenses at their sharpest, ƒ5.6 is what I want from most lenses...but if you think of the 31 ltd., it's sharpest at ƒ4...now there's a lens that deserves to be on a FF. Can you imagine, ƒ5.6 APS-c sharpness, with ƒ2.4 (APS-c) DoF for narrow DoF images.

IN a way a good lens would be wasted in me, I kind of like my sharpest to be ƒ5.6 on APS_c because it gives me both wide DoF and maximum sharpness on many lenses. The DOF for many lenses @5.6 on FF just isn't wide enough. You have to stop down, and then you're out of the lenses sharpest ƒ-stop. You pay a lot more for a lens that is sharpest a ƒ4... of course this is an intellectual problem, not a practical problem, a 31 ltd on FF stopped down to ƒ8 would be great, it would be that niggling little thing about it being sharper at ƒ4, it would bother me. The mind is a funny thing.
10-23-2014, 01:00 PM   #638
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Since I tend to try and use lenses at their sharpest, 5.6 is what I want from most lenses...but if you think of the 31 ltd., it's sharpest at 4...now there's a lens that deserves to be on a FF. Can you imagine, 5.6 APS-c sharpness, with 2.4 (APS-c) DoF for narrow DoF images.

IN a way a good lens would be wasted in me, I kind of like my sharpest to be 5.6 on APS_c because it gives me both wide DoF and maximum sharpness on many lenses. The DOF for many lenses @5.6 on FF just isn't wide enough. You have to stop down, and then you're out of the lenses sharpest -stop. You pay a lot more for a lens that is sharpest a 4... of course this is an intellectual problem, not a practical problem, a 31 ltd on FF stopped down to 8 would be great, it would be that niggling little thing about it being sharper at 4, it would bother me. The mind is a funny thing.
It is more f/2.63 than f/2.4 for dof control. We speak of 1.15EV difference between the 2 formats, not 1.5EV For high iso performance, that maybe even less for practical purpose on Sony with the monstruous vigneting on the strantandard lens.

Anyway I really understand you point, and to me that logical. The guys that after an FF argue endlessly of slightly better dof control and sligly better sharpness and better high iso perf at the detriment of a smaller dof.

That also logicial to think of what you miss when going to FF Even if that more theoretical than practical. The adventages of FF are also more theoritical than practical anyway!

10-23-2014, 05:01 PM   #639
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The adventages of FF are also more theoritical than practical anyway!
Yeah, that big, bright viewfinder is just a theory anyway. Nobody needs that.
10-23-2014, 07:08 PM   #640
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
that big, bright viewfinder is just a theory anyway
It's often not THAT bright.

'Full frame' film cameras like my MX have lovely bright OVF's, but that brightness doesn't seem to have transferred across completely to FF digital.

I've been spending some time recently behind a D610 viewfinder, and while it is bigger, it doesn't seem that much brighter at all compared to a K-3. Maybe all the overlays they put on OVF's nowadays - AF points, grids etc - dim the view a bit.
10-23-2014, 09:47 PM   #641
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I've been spending some time recently behind a D610 viewfinder, and while it is bigger, it doesn't seem that much brighter at all compared to a K-3.
I'd go along with this. I have a D810, and I really don't see the viewfinder as that much better than my K-3 - I can manually focus fine with both. And neither comes close to the MX.
10-23-2014, 10:19 PM   #642
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That would be cool if that was the differenciating spec of coming FF: a huge VF
10-23-2014, 10:21 PM   #643
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The adventages of FF are also more theoritical than practical anyway!
YOU are a funny person.. hilarious in fact.
10-23-2014, 10:33 PM   #644
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Maybe all the overlays they put on OVF's nowadays - AF points, grids etc - dim the view a bit.
The light diverted to the autofocus sensors must be a significant factor as well. That light doesn't even reach the prism.
10-23-2014, 11:20 PM   #645
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
YOU are a funny person.. hilarious in fact.
It they where really practical, everybody would instantly see the difference between FF shoots and APSC shoots, regardless of apperture, isos, speed. Most of time through, compare A4 prints (8x12") and you'll not be able to see any difference. It is not like we were speaking something substencial like FF vs 8"x10" where the 8"x10" would really have and edge (even today with film).
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