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10-29-2014, 12:15 AM   #721
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So far Pentaax has stayed with quality products, great cost to performance and solid well built cameras. But, that is very old school.
The guys that I know that brought Pentax all brough a K30 in fact. They did it because of the very interresting price on one side and the very high level of performance on the other side. WR, good high isos, fair price. They did compare on the internet to get the best products (and Pentax is very well positionned on this topic) and for 1-2 I given then adivce. And of course my father is a long time Pentaxian. I didn't choose for that but for the very interresting offering the K5 was back in time.

Out of all the persons I know, one brough one Fuji (for high end compact: Fuji X20), one brought some Olympus to go all over the world and get a very small package, 4 brought one K30, 1 brought one Nikon, I don't know what model. He is the one that is least impressed by his gear.

We are all engineers, this might be that, but more and more people are checking reviews on the internet and price and choosed based on that. Pentax is well positionned for this.

10-29-2014, 12:51 AM   #722
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote

We are all engineers, this might be that, but more and more people are checking reviews on the internet and price and choosed based on that. Pentax is well positionned for this.

Well, my brother would be the perfect counter example. Yeah, engineer too. No, doesn't care the crap.Known brand, good price, sold.
Doesn't care the heck about any photographic modes but will probably insist he knows better than you how it works inside

Oh, and he will usually buy stuff he nothing about without asking anyone advice. Guess he would look bad or something.
10-29-2014, 04:39 AM   #723
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Full Frame in the Nikon world

I don't want to hijack the thread or divert the topic away from Pentax. But the following data may be interesting towards the question how important FF is within the DSLR world now. As this data cannot (yet) come from Pentax, I think the following may apply to this thread.

Reikan FoCal, a computerized tool to fine tune AF calibration for Nikon and other vendors, has published the usage proportions by camera for its tool.

It is a safe assumption that only enthusiast and pro photographers (like wedding etc.) care enough for AF fine tuning to purchase and use said tool. Therefore IMHO, the usage proportion is a good measure for FF adoption among enthusiast and pro photographers in the Nikon world.

This is the graph:


The top two bands (orange and gray) and bottom two bands (light blue and orange again) are APSC (D300/D300S/D7000/D7100) and together amount for roughly 20%, about 80% being FF.

With the D800 being over-represented because of its notorious left AF point issue, one may still say that maybe 2/3 of enthusiast and pro photographers in the Nikon world use FF, partly or exclusively. E.g., there already seem to be twice as many D810 than D7100 users.

One may of course argue that FF users shell out more money to buy said tool. But the same holds true for lenses and accessories, meaning the direct and indirect business revenue charts by camera model within Nikon corporation will likely look the same as above graph!

This leaves the entry level market (D3xxx and D5xxx series which runs between $500 and $750) as the only one left for APSC, with little or no indirect sales triggered by it. And this segment already sees stiff competition from mirrorless and enthusiast compacts.

I think this leaves no options for what Pentax has to do next ...

Last edited by falconeye; 10-29-2014 at 04:47 AM.
10-29-2014, 05:56 AM   #724
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Percent vs Gregorian Date?

Percent of what? Percent of people who bought the software actually using it or percent of sales of a camera model using the software? Can't be sales of units because the D7000, D7100 and Df says 100% at times

10-29-2014, 06:06 AM   #725
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Percent vs Gregorian Date?

Percent of what? Percent of people who bought the software actually using it or percent of sales of a camera model using the software? Can't be sales of units because the D7000, D7100 and Df says 100% at times
There seems to be more info and charts if you go to the company's blog posts detailing all this.

Reikan FoCal Nikon Stats
Reikan FoCal Canon Stats

The pie charts are perhaps clearer. The Canon pie charts, for example, show that the 6D is pretty popular. I guess one question not answered is how popular lower-end FF really is. It might be that people prefer functionality and build quality first, so they stay put on high-end APS-C if they cannot afford to go higher, but if they can afford to then they jump right over cameras like the 6D or the D610 and go for the full-fat FF ones. Just speculating.

--

Last edited by mecrox; 10-29-2014 at 06:22 AM.
10-29-2014, 06:23 AM   #726
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I'm not sure what we're seeing there... that the D8xx family desperately needs focus calibration? That its owners are very demanding?
But I know what we're not seeing, and it's pretty obvious: an indication about APS/FF relative market share.
10-29-2014, 07:03 AM   #727
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I don't want to hijack the thread or divert the topic away from Pentax. But the following data may be interesting towards the question how important FF is within the DSLR world now. As this data cannot (yet) come from Pentax, I think the following may apply to this thread.

Reikan FoCal, a computerized tool to fine tune AF calibration for Nikon and other vendors, has published the usage proportions by camera for its tool.

It is a safe assumption that only enthusiast and pro photographers (like wedding etc.) care enough for AF fine tuning to purchase and use said tool. Therefore IMHO, the usage proportion is a good measure for FF adoption among enthusiast and pro photographers in the Nikon world.

This is the graph:


The top two bands (orange and gray) and bottom two bands (light blue and orange again) are APSC (D300/D300S/D7000/D7100) and together amount for roughly 20%, about 80% being FF.

With the D800 being over-represented because of its notorious left AF point issue, one may still say that maybe 2/3 of enthusiast and pro photographers in the Nikon world use FF, partly or exclusively. E.g., there already seem to be twice as many D810 than D7100 users.

One may of course argue that FF users shell out more money to buy said tool. But the same holds true for lenses and accessories, meaning the direct and indirect business revenue charts by camera model within Nikon corporation will likely look the same as above graph!

This leaves the entry level market (D3xxx and D5xxx series which runs between $500 and $750) as the only one left for APSC, with little or no indirect sales triggered by it. And this segment already sees stiff competition from mirrorless and enthusiast compacts.

I think this leaves no options for what Pentax has to do next ...
AN interesting speculation, but unless you're interested in this software, too many unsupported assumptions for me. According to these graphs, Pentax doesn't exist. I'd be interested in a little more rigorous exploration of exactly what demographic their customers represent.

You do know that the Pentax FF is in engineering at the moment? It's kind of like you saying they have to do what they're doing.

QuoteQuote:
This leaves the entry level market (D3xxx and D5xxx series which runs between $500 and $750) as the only one left for APSC, with little or no indirect sales triggered by it. And this segment already sees stiff competition from mirrorless and enthusiast compacts.
I don't even know where that came from. What leaves the entry level market as the only one left for APS-c?

Not every piece of software I've bought turned out to be useful, or even what it said it was. Most companies, their demographics is people they've convinced to buy their product. Assumptions about whether their product actually does anything useful or if their customers even needed to buy their product are completely unwarranted. It's quite possible that their whole demographic consists of folks who bought their advertising hype. I n marketing driven economy, having sales is not predicted on the necessity of having something useful to sell. You only have to convince folks you do.

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 07:38 AM.
10-29-2014, 07:32 AM   #728
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Fo-Cal users are not exactly a representative slice of market share...its going to skew a ton towards the enthusiast and professional level cameras.

10-29-2014, 07:35 AM   #729
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You do know that the Pentax FF is in engineering at the moment? It's kind of like you saying they have to do what they're doing.
A Pentax FF model may be in development but Ricoh's official position is that they are "observing the market".

What falconeye is saying is that it is high time to stop observing the market but release the FF model.
10-29-2014, 08:01 AM   #730
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QuoteQuote:
Reikan FoCal, a computerized tool to fine tune AF calibration for Nikon and other vendors, has published the usage proportions by camera for its tool.
This brings up another issue.

The two Nikon D810 shooter I took out on trip this year, were totally caught up in trying different techniques to stabilize their cameras. I on he other hand ended up without a functional tripod and had to shoot everything hand held. In the end, my images were very similar to theirs, when there was a difference, mine were better. The question this poses to me, is, does this represent the number of people who upgrade to hi-res cameras, but are still disappointed in their images. In fact of the ones we viewed, on their screens, many were noticeably soft, compared to my K-3 images. So my wonder is, what is it about Nikon D800s and D810s, that causes so many soft images, even when tripod mounted, using mirror lock up and remote releases? And is that what is triggering the sales of this type of software? It seemed, listening to these guys that this was a well known issue in the Nikon community. One of them even had a gerry rigged remote trigger thingy that was supposed to help him stabilize his camera for landscapes.

I think people are being disappointed by their results , in part caused by resolution hype and the promise of better images through more resolution. At least that's what I observed. Watching the two of them sit there, and discuss their lack of results and what was going wrong...I've never experienced what they were going through. And that is the only context I have that helps this software make any sense at all to me.

Pentax has said the FF is in engineering. Their plan is clear. The K-3 was first. They went from that to the 645z, now they are working on the FF. That people are able to misrepresent what they've said, well, a reflection on those people, not Pentax.

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 08:11 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:03 AM   #731
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Skating to where the puck was a few moments ago

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote

What falconeye is saying is that it is high time to stop observing the market but release the FF model.
+1

And when you consider the lead time required for lens development and the sales lost in the interim, that time was perhaps two or three years ago.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 09:07 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I don't want to hijack the thread or divert the topic away from Pentax. But the following data ...
Fox News Conclusion: FULL FRAME REQUIRES MORE FOCUS TUNING!

10-29-2014, 08:14 AM   #732
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
+1

And when you consider the lead time required for lens development and the sales lost in the interim, that time was perhaps two or three years ago.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 09:07 AM ----------



Fox News Conclusion: FULL FRAME REQUIRES MORE FOCUS TUNING!

Way too obvious if you think about it for half a second...You're projecting further from the optical centre of the lens.. of course the tuning is more critical. duh

Of course the alignment of the focal plane of the elements within the lenses within the barrel is also going to be critical, and I'm not sure software can help you with that. Something to investigate.

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 08:26 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:24 AM   #733
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Way too obvious if you think about it for half a second...You're projecting further from the optical centre of the lens.. of course the tuning is more critical. duh
Focus errors are usually more clearly seen on aps-c (same # of pixels) because the same image is magnified more.

At any rate I do think the D800 left AF-point issue is clearly seen here.

This also highlights another peripheral purchase (SW) largely made by FF shooters - a snapshot into a demographic Pentax is still, for some reason, waffling on.
10-29-2014, 08:30 AM   #734
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
Fo-Cal users are not exactly a representative slice of market share...its going to skew a ton towards
a slice of
QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
the enthusiast and professional level cameras.
that has a certain set of needs.
10-29-2014, 08:30 AM   #735
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
skew a ton towards the enthusiast and professional level cameras.
That was the point.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 08:32 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Way too obvious if you think about it for half a second...You're projecting further from the optical centre of the lens.. of course the tuning is more critical. duh
That's a convoluted, misleading, and false statement IMO.
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